An Independent Pain (My 4 Yr Old)

He's right.

And if the 4 year old can't hold a decent conversation on the phone, then she should write a letter to him. 500 words, grammar and spelling count.

:)
FWP

She's 4! She's not 25 doing this.

She's a girl!

If you think that's independent, you haven't seen nuthin' yet!

You are trying to get her to talk on the phone, but in a few years, you are going to try to get her off the phone!

Relax. Better a leader than a follower.

No, no punishment. This is VERY normal behavior. This is how my 5 1/2 yr old's conversations with my hubby go. "Hi Daddy. I love you too. Daddy, we went to the ZOOOOOO today. Yeah. Daddy, did you know that "Cars 2" is on? Bye!"

His conversations with grandparents? Even better. He leads them on a phone tour of his toys and then thrusts the phone at my 14 month old and says, "Here, here's my baby" and then he runs away to go play again.

As long as your daughter isn't trying to dart into the street by herself or refusing to hold hands in a crowd or in a parking lot, she NEEDS to have that kind of independence.

ETA) and really, after reading the subject of your message ("independent pain"), I was expecting to read something like she is trying to climb tall trees, build campfires, make her own bacon & eggs, etc. Not that she doesn't like to hold hands or talk on the phone. I don't know any kid over the age of 2 who likes to hold hands while walking.

you are right.
your husband is wrong.
have him read or research child development. she's not an adult, expecting adult reactions from her will result in constant disappointment for him and unfair demands on her.
khairete
S.

You want to know how my five year old has phone conversations? She'll pick up the phone, talk for a bit to whoever is on the other line, get distracted by something, put the phone down without a word and I'll find it a few minutes later with someone (probably my mother) saying, "Hello? Hello is anyone there?"

Sometimes she'll cheerily say, "Ok, I'm done talking with you now!" before dropping the phone after a sentence or two. My dad thinks this is the greatest thing ever and has started using this line instead of "goodbye".

Your description of your child could be of my own, so from my perspective, her behavior is totally normal and your husband needs to stop being so butthurt about it.

My four year old does the same, she will talk a few minutes then say love you and put the phone down. at 4 their attention doesnt usually stay on one thing for very long. theres no way i would punish a child for not wanting to talk long enough on the phone..

J., nothing you say is going to make a difference to your husband. You know that about him. Make an appointment with your ped the next time you know he is in town, put him in the car and drive him to the ped. Ask the ped to talk to you both (leave the child with a babysitter) and get the ped to explain child development.

Don't mince words. Tell the ped in front of your husband where the difference in opinion lies. Be ready to say it all and get it out fast. Your husband will have to sit there and listen to the doctor.

If you are in a practice with several doctors, I'd choose a man if I were you. Your husband might listen to him better. When you call and make the appointment, tell them it's for "behavioral concerns" and you'll need a half hour.

I promise you that this will help. Your very stubborn and authoritarian husband HAS to hear this from someone other than you. He doesn't believe what you say and doesn't really respect your understanding of children.

If he won't listen to the doctor, then you need to just ignore what he says to you and stop trying to figure out how to talk to him about this stuff. That phone texting conversation you detailed before says it all. Sometimes, when people like your husband won't try to learn the truth, you just have to shut them out.

Dawn

Punished for not wanting to talk on the phone at age 4? I don't think so.
Your husband (mine travels a good bit as well) needs to focus on spending time and making memories with his daughter when he IS there, rather than dictating how she reacts to him when he's not. Sorry, but at 4, it's out of sight - out of mind.
As for the hand holding--for me, it depends on the child & surroundings and safety conditions at the time.

Hi J.-

Of course, no punishment for not wanting to talk on the phone!

I would suggest skype. One, seeing him on the screen may keep her more 'engaged'...and two, if it doesn't, then at least he can see her being a 'typical' four year old!

I do not know what to say regarding the hand holding. At what age does your hubby suggest you can 'let it go'? 5? 10? 18?

I think little steps, as you have been doing, are perfectly fine.

Best Luck!
michele/cat

this article says defiant toddler = good parent child relationship
http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20070723/your-toddler...
From your past posts about your husband and daughter, it is very clear that he is very controlling (is he like that with you?) He insist she drop everything when he comes home, he throws her toys and pouts if she says she likes mommy better than daddy. He does not want to raise an independent thinker, he wants to raise one who is very obedient to an authoritative father. He is grooming her to be obedient to the world. This will also be a girl who will not be able to say no to peers, who will not be able to say no to boys) I'd rather have a difficult child than a pushover. Yes my daughter was an "independent pain" but she grew into an independent young woman who will never marry a controlling husband. I fear for your daughters future if you cant go to family counseling. (for those who may wonder if I'm being overly dramatic, I know it sounds like I am! go back and read every post about this Daddy/daughter relationship.)
And to second those who say kids this age don't "get" the phone, I remember my son asking "can you see me?" and holding things up to the phone to show the other person something, despite repeatedly telling him you cant see her, she cant see you.....

This s normal behavior for a child this age.

Conference calls are great for work, but 4 year olds do not get this concept.

If he is not there with her, she does not understand he is really on the other end of the phone.

It is almost like tv to her.

He needs to understand this is a child. Not a teenager.

FYI, you want an independent child.

Completely normal 4 year old behavior. Is your husband familiar with this child? (that's a joke...)

I second the suggestion of Skyping. It has helped with both our 5 yr old and 2 1/2 yr old.

It's totally normal, and your husband needs to not take it personally or make a big deal about this. She probably is just more interested in doing something else at the moment and that's just how their brains work. I was 4 years old when my brother was born and I went to stay with our neighbor while she and my dad were in the hospital. I had been over there for the whole day and apparently had been having a blast playing with all of HER daughter's toys. My mom called later to let her know every was fine and then asked to talk to me. Neighbor told me my mom was on the phone and wanted to talk to me, and I told her I was "too busy". My mom was surprised but not upset - actually she thought it was pretty funny!

I so would NOT punish her for typical 4-year-old behavior. If she were a tween or a teen and totally copping an attitude about talking to someone on the phone that would be one thing, but that's not what is going on here. Let hubby know he needs to lighten up a little bit.

Her behavior is normal, typical, and age-appropriate. What your husband needs to know is, 4-year-olds don't really "get" the phone. At that age, if she just hears daddy's disembodied voice on the other end of the line, that's not really daddy. It's confusing and unreal to them.

In other areas, she's demonstrating a healthy degree of independence and confidence. Your husband should be proud of both mother (you) and daughter.

First off, how can you punish someone because they don't want to talk on the phone, regardless of their age? That's ridiculous!

My 10 year old GD hardly talks on the phone. She lives with me, I have guardianship, but I do allow her to spend extended periods of time with her mother. When she's there, I'll call her to see how things are going and I literally have to drag every word out of her. I just don't think kids feel really comfortable talking on the telephone.

Likewise, when her friends call, she'll sit there with the phone to her ear, but she's not saying anything and I don't hear the other person talking either. They will sit with the phone to their ears making a comment here and there and maybe watching the same tv show, but there is not a lot of conversation going on.

Again, I just don't think kids are that comfortable on the phone.

As for her independence, you should give her as much independence as you think she is ready for.

I almost wanted to ask if your question was for real: punishing a child for not talking on the phone?

Please.... no. Talking on the phone is *such* an abstract way of communicating for a child. They can't see the speaker's face or facial expressions- these are what babies first use to understand our communications with them and thus, seeking a face is hardwired into their brains. My son, who adores his grandparents in person, rarely wants to talk on the phone. He too would rather do other stuff. Most of the kids I nannied for-- if they ever spoke on the phone to their parents, even up through age five, it was mostly "hi", a long pause, a blank stare, and a prompted 'bye'. I think your husband needs to seriously lower his expectations in this regard.

Otherwise, it sounds like you are doing just fine in allowing incremental independence.

It sounds like your husband is wanting more time with his little girl? Maybe some 'dates' with just the two of them would be a start. Let him know what she's used to in regard to independence--what you shared with us-- and that pushing her back to being more dependent will likely result in a power struggle, which is not the best way to spend time or to connect with a child. It sounds like he might need to 'get to know' her (and not his perceptions of her) a little better.

My children are 4 and 8 year old girls. In my experience that is totally normal for all kids. My oldest is 8 and only recently has gotten chatty on the phone occasionally. Even at home, it is hard to engage them sometimes.if they have their minds on other things. And usually they have their minds on 3 things at once.

We are big believers in manners and learning grace and courtesy. So we would require our girls to say hello nicely, and explain they are busy or don't feel like talking. 'Nuff said. Now, if someone's feelings get hurt, I might explain, "Oh, Daddy felt bad that you didn't want to talk this morning. He misses you. Next time, let's try to tell him a story."

I think it is nice tha ther Dad is so engaged with her, but he has to get over himself a little bit. Of course you should encourage her independence and manners. But she should never be required to talk to anyone she doesn't want to. Does he really want her to feel forced? To to think she has to pacify adults or men? She is totally normal and absolutely don't punish her. That's silly.

PS - As fpr holding hands, you sound like you are doing great. I am a big believer that most parents don't hold hands enough or supervise enough. But a four year old can walk on a sidewalk next to an adult if you know they are trustworthy. She is going to kindergarten in 1-2 years? You will have a bigger problem if you don't give her some freedom. She won't develop good decision making or coping skills without you testing her a little bit. Now, in the mall, don't let go of her for an instant... :)

Yes, totally normal for kids that age to not want to talk on the phone. With that said, this phone situation is a great opportunity to talk about being kind and friendly to those we love. I let my kids know, when grandma calls, that it is important to give her some undivided attention and talk with her. I encourage them to ask questions and show interest in her. I would not scold your daughter about this but I would strongly encourage her to be kind to her dad and enage him in a conversation. Have her think of three questions she can ask him. Maybe at night she could read a book with him, say prayers, make up a silly bedtime story with him. Do you guys Skype?

My daughter is 10 and has only recently started to talk on the phone -- she hates it. I don't think punishing is a way to encourage better talking. It might help if she could see the person she's talking to -- if your husband has a smart phone and can download Skype, you could Skype with him for free from your computer and they could talk face to face. That takes practice, too, because they like to see themselves on the screen, but if you can hide that window or get her used to it, with time, she can focus on his face and they can interact.

my 5 year old is the same with both of us. when shes with her dad/my ex and I call two seconds in she says "OK, may I please get off the phone?" the may part is the only part we worked on previously she would J. say, ok i'm done takling and hit end call. sometimes we still get the "hello, ok bye!"

she does the same thing to my ex when he calls when shes with M.. Unless she has something to say she doesnt care.

Its funny when she was 2 and 3 she wanted to be on the phone for hours talking, now that she is capable of a completely intelligent conversation she doesnt want anything to do with it. there are better things to do!
I dont see how you could break her of not walking to talk, the only thing you can do is say she must wait for the other person to say bye back before hanging up. that was our rule, which she ussually forgets

Seems normal to me. Have you tried Skyping or doing FaceTime on iPhones (if you have those) for these calls when your husband is away? Seeing him may make her more interested in sticking it out a little longer. Or she can show him some art she made during the day, or her attempt at a cartwheel -- whatever she is interested in. May help him feel more connected.

This sounds very normal. I don't think it's a matter of independence, disobedience, etc...just a 4 year old acting like a 4 year old.

But if your husband insists that she be able to act like a 40 year old when she's on the phone with him, help her out during the day by preparing for the calls. Make a list, maybe in pictures, of things she can tell him.

And tell your husband to be ready to ask lots and lots of open ended questions, not yes and no questions. And very direct questions. "What did you do today?" does little to a 4 year old. She's had a lot of important stuff going through her head since she did everything she did on any day. He can help by keeping up with her schedule so he knows what to inquire about.

Also, please print all of this out and keep it for 10 years. We will likely all still be here when he wants to write and say "I can't get my 14 year old daughter off the phone."

Please don't punish or lable a child for not being able to have an adult conversation with someone she can't see. I've never heard the expression "Independent Pain" but I sure don't like the sound of it.

Something else came to mind as I was re-reading your post. Is the issue really that your husband feels that she doesn't mind him when he's home, or while he's away? If that's the issue, it's time to work on some parenting skills, or make an agreement between the two of you what will be expected of her. Even if Mommy lets her walk a few steps ahead, if Daddy expects her to stay with him and tells her so, she needs to know that she must mind Daddy. And he needs to learn how to fit into the family system when he comes home (if work travel is a regular part of your life).

She's not a pain though. She's a normal 4 year old.

You are right.

She is 4.
They are not still as statues. Ever.

There have been times, when my Husband has called home, my 5 year old son answers the phone. Its Daddy. So my son "chats" then puts on the speaker button, and then lays the phone down on the sofa, and just sits there... as my Husband is talking. My son talks or not... but just likes having the phone there, on the sofa, on speaker phone mode. Then sometimes he gives my Husband a play by play of what he is doing and goes running around the room playing as usual... all the while the phone is on still on speaker mode. Now, 5-10 minutes can pass by like this. ANd my Husband saying "Son, are you there? What are you doing? Daddy is busy... you talk or not or hang up. Hello? Hello?"
So... would your Husband rather your 4 year old do that???

Young kids, do not have "conversations" like adults do.
And they ARE "busy" and active.
Their sense of "conversation" is different, at this age.

Maybe, instead of a phone call... you and your Husband/daughter, can do "Skype?" It is free.
www.skype.com
Then you all can SEE each other, while talking.

And no, I DO NOT SEE why your daughter should be "punished" over this.
If she doesn't want to talk on the phone, fine.
No big deal.

Get the book "Your Four Year Old." Amazon has it. A good book about each age of a child and what they are like. Although written years ago, it is still very informative and pertinent.
Let your Husband read it.
Your Husband... needs to learn about child development.
And he has a little girl... he has to LEARN, about how to bond with and handle a little girl.
;) Wink.
I have a son and daughter.