Please Help - Hollidaysburg, PA

If you have sole custody then he has no visitation.

In order to have visitation needs joint custody with you having primary custody meaning they live with you and he has them for visits.

What is he asking for?

He has no license so you driving the kids back and forth? Have the grandparents been seeing the kids?

could ask for supervised visits and they don't have to be weekly maybe biweekly and not just for a month could be for 3-6 months.

How come you have sole custody? why hasn't he seen the kids? too many unanswered questions

i hope all is done for the CHILDREN cause that is who matters most. why arent his wages garnished? i know thats what i had done when i went to pa court and he had to pay back pay as well which meant every year if he gets tax return it comes to me for payment on back child support.also a pyschiatists may talk to kids to get their feelings before letting dad see them. How do your kids feel about their dad? why was he not there for so long? also i was told that the children had to have a bedroom in order to spend nite.you need to bring up all your concerns at meeting!!!and let him do talking before you decide anything he may want less than you think ! good luck my thoughts are with you :) S.

S.,
I'm sorry you and your children have to do this. It stinks that he hasn't been there for so long, but maybe he is trying to change his ways.(?)
I don't know if ALL of the advice you've already received is valid. You have an attorney, so utilize him/her!
Visitation does not equal support nor th ereverse is true in PA. They are two different areas completely. He probably has valid legal rights to visitation with his kids (whether he has done so in the past or not.)
I believe a parent has to actually SIGN away their parental rights of their own free will--not just because he hasn't seen them in a year or two. I have a friend who had her X sign away his rights and it was after MANY years of non-involvement.
Anyway, I think it's reasonable to begin with visits at the grandparents 1 time per week for maybe a few hours at a time. Let the kids get used to the idea. Is he asking for overnight visits? If so, maybe this is too soon for overnights---try the couple hours for awhile if you can. Good luck to you and your kids.

Hi S.,

Family Conferencing may be what you all need.

Call Laura Rush, the Conferencing Program Coordinator at
###-###-####.

Hope this helps. D.

hummm- see how it goes. I mean two years and now we are having round table? I would ask for him to give up his visitation rights--if you ask me. Any father who doesn't seem to care about not seeing his kids, should be your answer enough. Why force fatherhood or allow it? If you have done alright then I would take this opportunity to go full steam. They have a mom who cares and has been playing this role model for two years now---why disrupt their lives with tic for tac here? Now as far as the in-laws are concerned including grandparents...if they want to visit or anything and there hasn't been any barriers then by all means. AND if he's there (your X) then he's there.
I would ride it out.

Oh my, your situation sounds sooooo familiar to me!! It's a horrible situation for you and your kids. This same thing happened to me as a child (my parents divorced when I was 8 and my sibling was 4). ALWAYS keep in mind, this is not about the x, it's about the children. My father was less than stellar and is to this day! While I was growing up, visits were sporadic and when I did have to go visit him I HATED it. I really didn't look at him as my father and he lived like a bachelor and it made me very uncomfortable as a child. I was very confused because I wanted to love my father and have a relationship with him, but he was unwillingly/unable to fulfill that role. He constantly made promises, that 95% of the time he never kept and it was just another disappointment for me time and time again and left me even more confused. I wish I had the option that your children do (assuming they have a relationship with their father's parents). At least you can request any visitation be done at the grandparents' house with them supervising and see how your children handle/react to that and get reaquainted with their dad and then revisit options for additional visitation. In the round table discussion I would definitely request that he start paying support, get his license and get a place to live, suitable for the children, before he has sole visitation. In other words, he has to earn back is parental rights by being responsible and showing he is capable of putting his children's best interest in front of his own!! You never want to deny your children to see their father (as long as it's not something serious like drugs, alcohol probs, etc) because they will resent you. Trust me, children are smarter than we give them credit for and they will figure it out on their own. It may take a while, it did for me, but eventually children figure things out without the parents pointing fingers at each other by "telling" their children what they don't/shouldn't hear. The ONLY thing I give my father credit for is that because he was such an absent/non parent, I'm a much better parent to my 3 boys (currently preg with my 4th). I wish you and your children the very best!!! I hope that all works out for the children and I will pray that it does!

Hi S. ~ Are you looking to keep him "involved" in their life? Do they know/associate him as dad? To clear up some other advice, he can willingly sign his rights away. But, you can also go to court after 6 months of no contact for involuntary removal of rights. We went through a similar situation about 3 yrs. ago. If you do want to keep him involved, I would say absolutely no visits to his house (you don't know who those people are), and start out very slow, you can't just throw the kids into his routines/rules. Maybe a few hours, supervised, at a restaurant, park, fun center, etc. so that they can get used to "dad". And as far as grandparents (not knowing your relationship there), at this point they do not have rights to visitation. Hope all goes well with whatever you decide. J.

You know your children and situation better than anyone, so my advice is totally from an outside view. I wouldn't allow anything until all back payments are paid, if he is behind. Or at the very least, he must be making current payments to catch up in order to continue visitations. At any point a payment is missed, so will a visitation. This is incentive to keep the support of the children. Phone calls are allowed as long as it doesn't interupt the children's normal routine.

Ask the children how they feel and what they would like. They may be angry and it may be something that may need to be eased into. Or they may be very excited, which means things must still be eased into because their father has shown little interest in them in the past and you don't want their feelings hurt again and the rug pulled from under them. I would request that the father apologize to the children for not seeing them and be reassured that they're still loved.

You may want to start with phone calls with the children if things are tense. You may want to monitor the amount of phone calls as well because if he calls allot you don't want to look like the bad guy when you have to tell the children that they're buys with homework or chores and can't talk right now, or it's past their bed time. They need to keep a regular routine in the house.

It may be a good idea to do some random visits and calls to see how everyone reacts and let the newness wear off before setting up any official visitations. I don't know about going every weekend, since the kids have friends and other things going on. Every other weekend sounds good to start. Holidays at home sounds right to me. The weekend before Christmas with Dad is fine. Saturday, day before Easter, is fine. One phone call on each religious and legal holiday is fine. You may want to list each holiday that is important to both of you. How about birthdays? Will he be allowed to come over for the party? Should he have them the weekend before their birthday? I'd get out a calendar for the next 12 months and put an X on each weekend he can have the children. Will he do overnights or just day visits? Since Dad has no license, who will pick them up and drop them off? Will it be you? And if you can't, who will be authorized to do it? List the people that you trust that is allowed to transport your children, and who is not. List the only place they are allowed to go or not go, places they are and are not allowed to sleep over at. With your 5 year old, I'm sure there's a state law for a car seat/booster. Will you have to keep taking hers out of your car running the risk of it not being re-installed correctly? Or should Dad purchase another seat that will have to stay in another car that will be used to transport the children?

Don't write down anything formal (legal) until after you do some trial runs on visitation because things come up that you don't think about and then you may have to argue to get papers changed, even for the smallest things.

You'll want something written up for Dad and grandparents for the children if they were to get ill and needed to go to the doctor or ER. Dad and grandparents should have permission to get the children treated, same as any babysitter.

Think of all the little details before signing anything and take your time. Talk to the kids and keep everything in a positive light, mainly for the children's sake, but for your own sanity as well. The kids will sense the tension between you and Dad so talk like friends and always keep calm.

Good luck!

K. B
mom to 5 including triplets

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HarrisburgPAChat
Chat and events, within 2 hour radius

Since you wrote that he hasn't had any contact with the children on his own (I'm guessing its been through their grandparents), I would not go into the meeting and try to run it. I would wait and see what he and his attorney come up with first then be prepared to accept or deny the requests. Be sure to decide up front what you are comfortable with for the children's birthdays, holidays and Fathers Day. You are there to protect your children and you have the upper hand. I would definitely not allow the children to go to his apartment and at first I would request supervised visits. It would be a long time until I allowed any overnight visits either. Sadly enough, fathers like this come and go so I wouldn't get too sad about it, it seems he will defer back to his old ways and leave the kids in the dust again. The best thing you can do is not talk negatively about their father in front of them, believe me, they will make their own judgements very soon and you won't have to say word one to them.

I wish you luck.

Dear S.,
Perhaps by now you've already been to the meeting, and what I have to say may be irrelevant. However, in light of the fact that you've received several pieces of misinformation, I felt the need to write anyway. First, if you're in PA (most states, actually), custody/visitation & support are COMPLETELY separate issues. This means that he cannot be denied visitation based on nonpayment of support. Secondly, sole legal custody is NOT the same as primary physical custody. Sole legal custody means that you make the decisions for your kids. However, physical custody & visitations can be arranged separate from that. If your ex decides to turn himself around & begins to show responsibility, joint legal custody is certainly a possibility. Also, there's little, if any chance, at this point that your husband will get much visitation at the outset, b/c of his lack of interest for such an extended period of time.
I would agree that it would probably be best for you to attend the meeting & allow him & his lawyer to make their requests/demands before even saying anything. You may be surprised to learn that all he wants is one weekend a month or something like that. Although, that's pretty unlikely, since he's going through a lawyer. You indicated a "round table" meeting, but didn't say whether any court-appointed representatives would be present as well. If not, then everything that is discussed is completely "off the record" and will still have to go through a judge. If you don't come to an agreement, you can ask for mediation before going to court. Often, mediation allows for a lot of compromise & helps put everyone's perspective back where it belongs ~ the welfare of the children involved!
God bless you for sticking it out & for having the courage to ask for help when you're uncertain. I'll be praying for all of you ~ you, the kids, the ex, & the lawyers ~ most likely, everyone will have to make some compromises.

I don't think he has the same rights as most dads because you have sole custody and he hasn't made any attempts to see them in a few years. I don't think you are wrong in maintaining a one day visit for the time being. Also, I think your older child should have the right to refuse visitation all together. Your children shouldn't be forced to see him either. Yes, it will be rough at first for you. If they want to see him try not to be sad. If they like the grandparents then it may not be as hard. Just tell yourself that they are going to see the grandparents not him. If you find the children are being adversely affected by the visitation you may want to stop it all together. Granted, they may need to go and talk to someone so if your husband does take it to court you have a leg to stand on. Good luck!

It sounds to me as if you have a good handle on this, you are just feeling insecure about it. He hasn't been around for 2 years, he hasn't paid child support, and suddenly he's decided he's a dad and now he wants to pay his attorney to ensure he gets to visit his kids ?

Every state is different. I got divorced in Maine, and in Maine, because my ex and I got along, our divorce decree simply said, "reasonabls visitation", and we had to iron what that meant out ourselves. It worked until he remarried, and then he ignored the kids, so when he did show up there were LOTS of emotional issues going on which made our lives stormy before and after the visits. (The emotions always come out in the relationships where the children feel safe, so you are going to have to do lots of mopping up. They will probably be on their best behavior with him, 'so Daddy will love them', and the hurt, anger and insecurity will come out when they get home. It's not easy to deal with, but the good news in there is that when they act like that, you can remind themselves that YOUR residence is where they feel "at home".)

One day a week is okay, but you may find it imposes upon the time YOU want to spend with your kids. Most visits are every other weekend, I would think that going from NO visits to weekly visits interrupts your family often enough that things are going to be very very unsettled at your house. When my kids did go to their dad's, (which wasn't often) it took a whole week for the kids to settle back down into life in their own home.

I would say that the legal document should provide for no MORE than once every 2 weeks, and leave room for him to back out again or to allow you to agree to longer or more frequent visits at your discretion. If he left them for 2 years, the reality is that he will leave them hanging again. While he is interested in having a relationship, you can't really deny him one unless you can prove that he is abusive, neglectful or otherwise a danger to them, but I would be inclined to fight for my kids and say one Saturday every other weekend. Especially since they can't stay at his home anyway. In the end, they will most likely be going to visit Grandma and Grandpa, more than their father who may or may not show up.

What I learned about divorce, in retrospect, is that I should have been less "kind" and believed in myself more. I wanted things to go smoothly and to ensure that I backed down more than I should have. It sounds to me as if you are intimidated by him, and more particularly by his attorney. But you are the one who has been responsible for and faithful to the children for the past 2 years. If it had been up to him, they'd be in foster care. Walk into that meeting remembering that the ex and the attorney are only men, one who wants something from you (because he willingly gave it up in the first place) and the other is merely doing his job. Nothing more. Don't be intimidated by the courtroom setting or the formalities. Do what is best for your children, because you will be dealing with the fall out of this for the next 13-20 years.

Down the road a piece, you might find you gave him more visitation that you should have. Or you might find that you denied him visitation opportunities you wish you had allowed. Which situation would make you feel worse? I figure you can set a maximum court ordered amount, but allow wiggle room so you can be more lenient on a case basis, depending on how things are going.

The other option is to make visitation a very specified option now, and when he wants to increase it, he can return to the courtroom to discuss it again. That would be the more expensive route, so it really depends on whether or not the two of you can get along and deal with the issue together, or whether you need to have the court standing guard between you. Honestly, the more you two can work out without lawyers and judges involved, the better off you will be and the children will be, because you guys will handle it all better. But if that won't happen, by all means, nail it down tightly -- but don't be surprised if he disappears for another 2 years or so at some point. He's already shown a history of walking away.

Good luck! When you drive there, imagine it going well, and imagine yourself standing up to them the way you, as a nurse, would fight with a doctor to advocate on behalf of a patient. (!) You are strong and capable and you want to be thinking of those kinds of things rather than walking into the debates feeling worried and insecure. Be honest, be caring, and reserve for yourself the family time you want and need to provide a secure home base for your children. When you walk into the room, breathe deeply and slowly, be calm and do your best, with whatever resources you have within you at the time. That's all any of us can ever expect of ourselves and each other.

Kudos to you, Mom! It's a hard job, and you've been handling it and your nursing career for 2 years now. You can do it ! :-)

have the children been in touch with grandparents...in my own experience after years of trying with my daughters father if he went 2 yrs without seeing them prob will keep up for a bit and slack off..i think to ask for a short period 1 day a week is reasonable.unfort..as a father they have rights whether or not they deserve them! everyother weekend and holiday is pretty standard..unless the grandparents push it he will prob not step up to plate for long..so sad for these kids ..my daughter has seen her father 1 time in 2 yrs..i just stopped pushing and if he wasnts to see her its his turn to come forward..i guess for you it will be based on grandparents and your relationship with them...

i am so sorry to hear of your troubles - i am greatful not to have to deal with them - although several people close to me do. dont quote me on this but a friend of mine who is a foster mother and therefore knows a bit about the system - said to me that if the father makes NO contact (no phone calls; letters; emails etc) in 15months time then you can take him to court to take away is parental rights - then you wouldnt have to worry about him wanting to come back and forth into their lives - this would put the ball totally in the court of your kids - sounds to me (there are still questions i had like previously mentioned by someone else) like you may have a case to ask the courts to remove his parental rights.

let us know what you decide and how it works out....

S. w.