My Four Year Old

You say that 2 of the kids play soccer. I'm assuming it is not the 4 yr old since you didn't mention him playing soccer. My daughter was just like this at that same age. It was like someone flipped a switch on her 2nd b-day. I worked full time at the time and her brother was born around the same time. It seemed like I couldn't wait to get rid of my kids on the weekends to have some me time. Long story short, she started escaping from me and everyone else. She would say she is going shopping. I quit working despite the financial need before she started kindergarten to take her to and from school everyday because I could not let her get on the bus. She never would have made it! She is in 2nd grade now, and I still take her and pick her up everyday, but things have definately changed. Basically, she was feeling neglected. I was so busy with work and her brothers, and exhausted that I didn't have time for one on one with any of them. That is when the acting out began. It changed dramatically when I stayed home and focused so much time on her. Now, I have been able to "wean" her from so much attention, but I still have to watch her like a hawk. She is just my Independant one!

Sounds like he is definitely Optional Defiant. It is not a crime to take him to a developemental doctor and see what they can do to help you.
In the long run, it will help him also. There are books on strong willed children, and this would be good for you. Give you some different perspectives.

A.,

I agree with a lot of what people of said. My advice is look at a routine for him. I know, I know it is hard to get into a rountine but he may thrive on it. Show him what he is supposed to do and try different activities. And show him the time he can have mommy time. Just an idea. I have an Adhd child/no medicine with is 8 and just giving him a routine has increased good behavior by leaps and bounds. Not that he was bad just micheous(?).

Good luck!

T.

have you made sure that the 4 year ol is getting his own time, as the ones that play soccer are. this sounds to me like a "Mommy look at me" (as my mom puts it). he may just be looking for you time goo or bad. try one on one time just for him and see what happens.

omg.. I am in the same boat. My 4year old is soo bad. He gets my eyeliner and draws on the walls,couch,window etc. He finds markers, pens and draws on the floor, himself, everything. Dumped a bottle of elmers glue on the floor (covered it up with my work clothes) Breaks several glasses playing in the sink, constantly flushing toys/my stuff down the toliet (thank god my husband is a plumber), has escaped the house, poured out bottles of maples syrup, hershey syrup, dumped out dogs bowl on livingroom carpet a million times, climbs on everything, pours out the scope into the toliet regularly, strips the bedding off my bed, strips down naked constantly (its so embarrassing when someone comes to the door and i turn around and he is naked!, I totally know how you feel! And I want a 3rd child and my husband says I can't even handle the 2 I got...and he only seems to do this while my husband is at work (which is 6am-5pm) so all day and I work 3rd shift so I run on NO sleep!

A.,
My husband and I along with several of our friends and family with small children have read and are implementing many parts of this book. It has been amazing! The number one thing I have learned is never discipline when you are angry and don't yell. You need to keep your yelling voice for important times like if your child is running towards danger, etc so that way they will respond to you when you raise your voice. Below is the link for the book.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/children/pearl_tuac.htm

Have you tried rewarding good behavior? You could make a chart of some sort and "catch" him doing good things, praise him, let him put a sticker on his chart.
As far as punishment, it doesn't always have to be harsh. You could just teach him by using the natural consequences. If sprays all the hairspray out, give him a sponge and make him clean up the sticky residue by himself. Not in a harsh "Do it now" tone but in a tone that says "I'm sorry you did that, now you need to fix it." Maybe even have him do little jobs around the house for money, not as a punishment, but so he can buy you a new bottle. that will teach him that if he ruins something that belongs to someone else, he has to make it up to them. Just putting him in a time out or spanking him won't teach him to be accountable for his actions or teach him the natural consequences of what will happen in the same situation when he is an adult. He needs to learn to clean up his own messes, not think it's okay to make it b/c someone else will clean it up for him. It will be a rough start but I imagine as you both get used to the way things are run things will calm down.
Punisments and time out are way overrated. Sometimes they are necessary in cases more appropriate, like hitting. But otherwise, natural consequences and positive discipline have much better lasting effects.

I recommend the book "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk." I only read a little bit of it before I had to take it back to the libarary, but what I read had really great ideas and I'm checking it out again as soon as it's available.

There is also the M.O.P.S. program. You can go on line to find a chapter near you. This gives you a bit of space and the kids are able to interact with other children. It's usually just an hour or 2 a week but it's a place to start.

A.;

He sounds like a combination of both my boys, who were 19 months a part. The oldest was just plain onery (much better now - he is 30 years old....) and his brother had/has severe ADHD problems.

If you are giving your son some attention each day, I don't think there is much you can do about it. He mau get better once he starts school. I admire you being able to stay at home however; I was able to some but not consistantly like I wanted to. Do you know if you and your husband could afford to enroll him in some kind of day care just for a few hours in the morning? This might satisfy his need to be so active, and perhaps he would calm down a little more in the afternoons for you.

wow, that sounds like my son. i blame it on him being deaf. but i think it is just him. i have to put him in his room and lock the door just to take a shower. and his closet is locked and his tv is on the ceiling. and basically nothing else. because he will climb move things to climb. nothing is safe in my home. using the bathroom in not even safe. because he will get into something. he even climbs are two story banister. and i have like you tried every discipline thing out there. and to top it off he has sensory issues so if i wip him he don't harly feel it. i basically follow him around and sign no to everything. my husband yells at me because on some things i say well he has to learn the hard way. after i tell him no fifty times, time out, take away. what is left. he is very stong minded. and child locks. who ever invented them. did not try them on my child. he just basically rips them off. pops them open and so on. we tried a chain lock on our front door he puled the door open hard enough and busted a chain and i thought that is supposed to help keep a burler out when a five year old can rip the chain into...

Perhaps he just wants your attention. Can you do one-to-play. Get him involved with helping with tasks. It could be helping to clean something, brush his teeth , set the table . Be creative and make it fun. He is probably tired of hearing negativity. Some days are like this. Less yelling would be good. He may have ADHD, ADD ???? Have you had him evaluated?

You need to make sure he knows who is the boss. When he follows directions , show him how happy you are and reward him with something. You could use a chart or journal to keep track of what happens each day. You may find a pattern. You may need to speak with a Psychologist that works with kids and their families. Dad needs to get into the picture. I get stressed without a break. It is exhuasting. My daughter is 4 1/2 and has sensory issues , and she acts out the minute I get on the phone, has been known to splash water all over the bathroom and other things. Time out or taking things away does work some. Each day is different. She often wants my attention and does not always use her words, she makes me try and make sense of her sounds to communicate.

Good Luck.
Give me an update.

J. R.

My now 6-year-old was just like that at three. One thing that helped us get out of it was to put him in preschool. What a difference it made, just two and a half hours, four days a week!

Also, sometimes when mine gets into destructo-mode, I just take him to a park or a playplace and let him run off some of his energy and boredom. I don't know if it is your son's problem, but boredom plays a BIG part in it here. We have created a craft box, found great online game sites, and discovered books and CD stories.

Negative consequence never worked for us much either. One thing that worked well was to get lots of cheap toys at the dollar store (and later, it was quarters) and lined them up on his dresser each day. Then each time he broke the rules or destroyed something, I would take one away. At the end of the day he got what was left. Later we extended it to be a week, and eventually he started school and it wasn't an issue anymore.

It will pass. Find his "price" or, what he would want as a goal. Then use that to help hm change behavior to reach it. Good luck!

I had a very strongheaded daughter; I got this idea from a psychologists article. It will work, within a week you will see improvement.
Make sure you are not overreacting. Kids love to see their parents helpless. Make sure you provide him with toys and activities he can do and enjoys. It is very IMPORTANT that you LIMIT TV TO A COUPLE OF HOURS A WEEK WHILE HE IS UP and do not talk on the phone much while you are training him.

Explain to him that you are not going to put up with him getting into things, show him the things he is allowed to do, maybe even make up a cabinet or drawer in your kitchen with things for him- some things that you use too.
Let him know that if he does well, you will take him outside to play in the afternoon, (or library, park, etc that he enjoys). If he gets into anything he is not supposed to, he will have to stay in his room in the afternoon instead. This will not be easy. It will take patience and several days for him to "get it".
This will work as long as you work at it and don't cut any corners. Don't let him know you are mad, upset or aggravated, just maturely say, "well, looks like you'll be in your room today instead of outside". If he keeps coming out of his room, just gently but firmly put him back in; the first couple of days, you might have to sit right outside his door and make sure he stays. Once he sees you are serious and he is not "getting to you" he will learn.

Your husband is working both second and third shifts? Unless I am not understanding correctly --that sounds like the root of the problem! He acts up only when Dad is gone and DAd is gone a lot! You two may be okay with how you have worked things out but it does not sound like it is working for your little boy--it sounds like he needs more Daddy time! My grand son was like this --my daughter and her husband were back and forth for several years before finally getting a divorce and whenever daddy left my gs would act out even more.

maybe you should get him tested for autisum or ADD.

A.,

He is behaving out of choice since he only does it when your hubby goes to work. It's behavioral.

He's BORED! And YOU are his entertainment!

Get him in a preschool (2 - 3 times a week, couple hours a day) which would stimulate him and socialize him. In addition there are play groups you can find out about.

Sounds like he's just a bit bored and finds getting into things and seeing your reaction a bit entertaining.

Don't drive yourself nuts over it....don't feel like you can't handle it or feel guilty, it is just life with a four year old. (I have 5 kids, I understand)...my youngest is 4 and I couldn't go through a day without her being in pt nursery school (2 hours a day on Monday/Wed/Fri)...she is in a better mood, tired, is "active" there so her need to be "creative" at home by getting into things is lessened.

Good Luck.

I agree with the moms who say he's probably bored. It sounds like you and your husband do a lot to make sure someone is there for the kids, but I'm sure you still have a lot of other things going on to take you away from him. And as for the mom who said to get him tested for autism or adhd... WHAT?! That is irrelevant and not at all helpful. I'm sorry for you. Anyway, I had a lot of trouble with this when we first moved here and I was trying to unpack and take care of our newborn at the same time. I found that the less my son was challenged or entertained, the more he found (inappropriate) ways to entertain himself. When I made a point to play with him, take him for walks and to the park, and get him active with other kids, he really turned around. It takes a lot of sacrifice on my part in terms of getting housework done, but at least I don't have to clean up the extra mess caused by his experiments ;) Good luck!

Ok. We have all been to that frustrating place. It stinks. I REALLY feel for you. But, there are solutions. It depends on what works best for you and your family. Sounds like you have an active kid! The best idea is to get him into an activity. Pre-school, play group, or kid's gym are good options, but not all of us have the means (ie vehicle, money etc) to do these things and if you don't - I say go mommy commando style.

I will fill you in to my parenting style. The kids that are always getting into trouble seem to be the ones that are bored, in my opinion (unless there are family issues, or things like that). Yes, when mine get bored they go all low level Child's Play. They get REAL bad. I know they do not have ADD, ADHD, or any other silly over diagnosed acronym. (yes, i did some research in my earlier years)

What I do for my little scoundrels - busy busy busy. Play time, book time, color time, running around time, chase the vacuum time, cleanup time (works well with songs), finger painting with pudding time (edible paint - yum!), singing time, helping mommy scrub the floor (this can be very fun if you don't mind splashing), folding laundry (fun with towels)....etc.

I keep mine very busy with play time and help mommy time. By 8 pm both my kids are tired - and I have most of my housework done. Kids can be involved in anything you do and you can make anything into a game, you just have to be creative. Not only are they keeping very busy, but they under your constant supervision and learning skills for when they get older and become your slave-----just kidding.

Also by them helping you or creating something you can give them praise and they will learn that praise attention is better than the negative attention of getting in trouble. You can also get dad involved. Make your son promise your husband in the morning that he will be good and help you. Also, make sure that your son is getting one on one time with both of you. Sometimes kids act out when they aren't getting enough time with one parent or another.

Good luck! We are all pulling for you.

Sounds like, for whatever reason, he's in desperate need of attention and he's figured out how to get yours. Spend a week doing what he wants, paying as much attention as possible to him and see if it curbs the behavior, if so, that's your answer. Does he go to preschool? He's plenty old enough to start school and have an outlet away from you for his energy.

Hi A.!

It sounds to me like, when your husband is at work, you're a very busy woman! Three children of your own, and you babysit, and you attend online school. I think, especially since you said he only does it when your husband's at work, that this is his way of getting the attention he wants from you. I know disipline is necessary when children act out no matter what the reason, but, speaking from experience, I'll bet if you sat him down and talked to him about why he's misbehaving and made a point to give him some exclusive time with you (I know that's not as easy as it sounds) he would stop acting up so much, even without extra disipline. It works around my house. There are days where I'm so busy that I hardly have time to stop, and those are the times my 4 year old does things like smearing green cake icing on our white wall. Things have gone much better since I realized it was my attention he was needing (I have a very attention needy 17 mo. old) instead of disipline. Hope this helps and good luck!

C.

As annoying & frustrating as it is, I have to say it's pretty normal behavior for his age, especially being a boy. Heck, my 8 yr. old son STILL plays in the water every time he brushes his teeth, goes to the bathroom, etc. Just keep reinforcing the fact that he shouldn't do those things that are unacceptable to you, and make sure you explain why on his terms. Get down on his level, physically & with your words. Even at 4, he thinks he's just having fun and really has no concept, or very little, that what he is doing is going to get him in trouble because it's not 'right'. In his mind, he's just playing with something new. Consequences are still not quite understood at this age. Don't give up, Momma. Keep your head up, and make sure you reward his good behaviors. Praise him in abundance when he does something good, no matter how small. He may start to associate doing good things with being praised and seeing that you're happy with him when he does those good things. Don't lose heart. And don't think you're alone. All of us mommas of boys sympathize and empathize with you!! I'm the momma of two boys...my youngest is 2 and a half...So we're beginning to enter this stage again...JOY! lol

Well.. if he's after attention, he's certainly getting it! When my son (he's 6 now) keeps repeatedly doing stuff and none of the typical discipline works, we go 'commando'. Sorry... got the term from Dr Phil. We empty his room. Yes... you heard me right. We leave the clothes in the dresser, lock the closet door, leave 3-4 books on the nightstand with the lamp and let him have 1 pillow (he normally has 2), a sheet and a blanket. He must earn the stuff back little by little and anytime during that period that he misbehaves, he loses some of what he earned back. It usually takes him 3-4 weeks to earn everything back. He was 3.5 the first time we did it. We had to do it 3 times since then, but for the past year just the threat of doing it will make him a little angel. He knows we mean business.

None of the typical discipline stuff works with our son. It took awhile, but we found his weak spot... and then of course it changes a few times a year as his interests change. At 4 he loved playing video games (PS2 Star Wars Lego) so he'd lose 15 of video game time... when he had 30 minutes a day, that's quite a chunk. Right now it's his legos... he'll lose them all if he acts up and misbehaves.

Your son sounds extremely active. A 4 year old should have more self-control. Try more exercise... make him run laps around the yard, go for a 30 minute bike ride, or play tag/soccer/whatever in the yard for a long time. A small trampoline (like the kid one lillianvernon.com has) would probably be great for him to burn off excess energy. We have one and my son would spends >hours< each day jumping on that thing when he was 4 (and very active).

I do believe some of the problem is just to get your attention. He doesn't care if it is positive or negative just so he has your attention.
Just enforce the following rule for the next few weeks and make sure you stick to it. He is not allowed to be in any room you are not in during the time he is awake at all period.
This means he helps you dust, helps run the vacuum, helps do the dishes, etc. When the work is done you can do other things like color, play dough, puzzles, finger paint (it can be fun with pudding), etc. Make the cleaning done with musica and dancing. He will get a lot of time with you and then when you decide to broaden his horizons sit down with just him and explain he is being given some freedom but he has to prove he deserves it by not acting out.
Should he attempt to get into something while in the room then it is harness time. He will be attached to you by a leash no longer than 4 feet at all times. After that you can start widening his horizons again at the first mishap it is back to the harness.
Believe me, he won't like having his freedom taken away and will finally get the message.
No, harnesses are not cruel or inhumane, they are for his safety and your sanity.
Enroll your husband in the practice. Have the child promise every day, one on with with dad, to be good and to help you, and on your husband's days off he gets to have the boy the and harness. I know your husband will help put a stop to the nonsense sooner than you will, husband's have less tolerance than wife's do.

With six of my own, I know that they can absolutely drive you crazy at times. It sounds like he is doing this for attention and he is getting it. It might be negative attention (discipline, punishment) but it is attention. It sounds like you are very busy and with dad gone so much that mom is stretched a little thin. When are you doing your online classes? Is it possible to do them when he is asleep so that you can spend more one-on-one time with him? Playing with cars, building block towers (and knocking them down) him helping you clean are all easy ways to get him busy. This behavior will take time to reverse since it has been going on for over two years. I don't know how you feel about it but have you considered a preschool for a couple days a week?

I agree w/ giving him more attention. It sounds like you're doing your online school work during your watch? Plus babysitting during the evening? He wants mommy time! If you were around him most of the time, then you would catch him before he gets into stuff so you would be able to stop him before he does it. Giving him attention AFTER the fact is just rewarding him for his behavior. You need to just ignore him and clean up later when he's not around. Since no punishment has worked, and he probably knows he's not supposed to do it, so let that go for now.

It's also important at his age to teach him to use words to describe his emotions. Ask him why he did xyz (some people think this just gives them excuses, but his answer might surprise you). Tell him what he could've done instead of doing xyz. Ask him if he's bored and would like to go somewhere or do something else. Ask him if he wants you to play with him.

Do you have things he is allowed to get into within his reach like toys, puzzles, crafts, etc? 4yos become interested in learning letters. Give him some dry-erase alphabet mats and ask him to trace letters. Sit w/ him and teach him phonics.

As for testing for Autism, you would know if something was a little "off" about him. ADHD diagnosis at 4yo is too young. He's only acting up when your DH isn't around - this doesn't fit w/ the ADHD diagnosis anyway. If anything else, it could be Sensory Processing Disorder - he's constantly seeking things that stimulate his senses, but again, it doesn't happen all the time (or is your DH giving him the stimulation that he needs?), so it could simply be an attention-getting behavior.

I have two boys that are very strong willed. One more than the other (my oldest). I notice that the only time my kids really start to act out in such behavior is when they are not getting the attention that they want from one or both parents. It sounds like he is acting out in destructive behavior for attention. After all, bad attention is better than no attention at all. Try a different approach. Try telling him what you like about him. Try telling him what behaviors you like from him. "Catch him being good." For example, if he is coloring try saying "Oh, I like that page that you are coloring and I love that color red you are using." I would almost guarantee that his behavior would improve. You might also want to suggest that your husband do the same thing. I think that special time with Daddy alone will be helpful. He might just be missing him and that is his way of letting you know. These approches really helped my boys. When they start acting out destructively, sometimes I pull them aside and put them on my lap and ready a quick story. It doesn't seem like a lot but to a child it really is. I hope this helps and best of luck.

My first thoughts when I read your plea were where is she while he is doing this and why does he have the run of the house(access to all this mischief)?
Having raised 6 children, my advice is Yes, you must be vigilant at all times.
I often confined my young children in the same room with me (which we had made into a "playroom") or in any room where I was trying to do something.
You are learning that mothers of young children often are not able to accomplish much when the children are awake.
Our children all napped every afternoon until about the age of five (and I sometimes napped with them).
Having a full-size mattress on the floor of the playroom did not hurt either.
Now 3 of my children have mattresses for their children to jump on in their indoor play areas.
You did not say the ages of your other children or if they are in school.
Be pro-active and just keep an eye on him until he gets the idea.
Post and discuss your rules and don't give up on consequences.
Also it sounds as if he needs some teaching on respect for the property of others.
Hope you can get it under control.
Also, do you think he is just seeking attention...and any kind will do?

To start with I did not read all of your responses so far, what I did see sounded good though.
I was in your shoes with my now 5yo, and what worked for her was school. She went to Pre-school at 4 1/2 (Dec birthday) and it was only 2 afternoons per week, but it helped immensly. The other thing that works to help stop her bad behavior (mouthy, defiant, malicious) is alone time with me. One day a week I try to take her for an hour or so and go do something, last week she was mis-behaving and I told her she was ruining our time together. It seems to make her a happier child all around when she gets alone time with just me and her, which is why we leave the house and go somewhere b.c there aren't any other distractions (like the chores or siblings). We have 4 children and in August our oldest two started living here during the school year and it is a ruff adjustment for us all. So, I understand how children get caught in the 'cross-fire' of our circumstances.
Additionally, I would be concerned that your son only exhibits this behavior when hubby is at work. There could be lots of reasons for this; such as he misses his dad, doesn't like you babysitting, or the worst he doesn't think you are really in charge. That last one might sound far fetched since talking about a 4yo, but it really isn't, my 5yo would tell me I am not the boss her dad is.
I would try a routine with alone time with each parent everyday (even just a book or bath time), consider pre-school, and once a week he gets just momie time away from the house. It might just help your entire family be happier. Also, mom and dad alone time sounds like it is needed to keep you from turning all grey :)