What Is a Good Punishment For....

If you have tried spanking, talking to him, time out, and punishment, you need to involve a therapist now. He has ADHD and if I had trusted my gut when my daughter was his age I wouldn't be going through what I'm going through now. Don't feel bad about spanking - sometimes it's hard for a mom, but you have to nip some of the behavior in the bud now. As for school - it's not going to help him. He'll only act out worse there, or he'll be left behind because he'll hate school - there is a lot of sitting in schools and no room for running around. Trust me, I've been there and done that. Get help now!

Something that I picked up from my son's school is the stoplight method. Red, yellow, green. If he does something minor he gets a warning. 2 warnings and he moves to yellow. Yellow means that he loses something like game time, dessert, etc. 2 more warning and he moves to red. Red means that he loses everything - play time, videos, tv, etc. We even made a chart that is on the fridge so that everyone that comes into the house can see it.
My babysitter just started this with all of her kids and it seems to be working well for her.
M.

B., the ideas recommended by other moms are great, like charts and books like "1,2,3" (haven't used it myself but hear good things about it). You have some positive disciplines to choose from there. I wanted to add one thing that applies no matter what method you choose....

You've used a lot of different things -- talking to him like an adult; promising him candy if he behaves well; threatening smacks if he behaves badly; time outs, etc.

But have you done any one thing consistently? Do you stick with any one discipline -- and try to think of it as disciplines to teach him to BE disciplined, rather than punishment because you're angry -- for any length of time? Or do you change around the discipline or reward or your reaction over and over because nothing seems to work? Nothing WILL work unless it's consistent and repeated and he knows exactly what to expect each and every time he behaves a certain way. Right now it sounds like his behaviors get different reactions at different times because you're trying to find the one reaction that works on him. He needs to know the rules and if the rules (meaning what happens when he misbehaves) change all the time, he will keep on pushing his boundaries to see what you will do next.

Know that he will keep pushing at first once you settle on a course of consistent discipline; you will think, this isn't working either. But you have to give it time to sink in with him that his choices will have these specific consequences. And you have to find consequences he'll care about. As you said, he doesn't care about losing the candy bar. He might care more about losing his favorite toy, or TV time, for a week, etc., but you need very clearly to connect the loss with his specific actions.

Attention is attention. I learned the hard way with my own daughter that we adults tend to think kids should not want "negative attention" like time outs, parental displeasure, taking away favorite toys, etc. But for many kids, negative attention is still attention and they crave attention in any form. So to our surprise, the kids misbehave and get disciplined but then keep misbehaving. If we're yelling at them or struggling with them about time out, we're paying attention to them. So discipline that gives him an unpleasant consequence AND takes your attention completely away is good (for instance, in time out, you do not talk to, scold or even react to him until you, not he, decides the time out is over).

Be sure he's getting lots of positive attention when you "catch him doing something good" and as someone else noted, get him a LOT of physical exercise. He may be a kid who needs a lot of physical activity to burn off the talk-talk-talk energy.

One other thought. The constant talking may mean he feels he loses attention to his siblings, so be sure he gets "alone time" with you and especially his dad--tough with the work schedule but it's a big need for little boys. And he may be very bright and imaginative--do you encourage him to pretend or make up stories or otherwise work out his talkativeness in a way that's not always talking at you? And does he have play dates with other kids his age to build social skills like letting others talk and take the lead?

Finally, please don't hope that school will fix this. Classes are too big and teachers too busy to work out individual kids' discipline problems in any detail. If you find a positive discipline and apply it consistently, you can do this.

I have two boys and my younger son is ADHD, so I can imagine what your life is like. :)

I read this in a parenting book recently -- When you take your young child out, give him 2 or 3 very specific rules that he must obey/follow. I used to just say "please use your good manners" thinking that would cover pretty much everything. But the book pointed out that a statement like this is way too general for little kids (my younger one is 6). The book explained that giving a few very specific rules to follow, then praising the child for the GOOD he does can really help. For example, the rules in a store could be: no hitting, no yelling and no running. Also, the ADHD behavior adds to his problem following instructions and rules... its too much for him to keep in his head with all the other swirling thoughts that go with ADHD. Try giving a few specific rules; you know him, you know what he's going to do, so you can tailor your rules to the behaviors that you know will drive you nuts. This could relieve a lot of stress for you.

Just remember to give a maximum of 3 rules. Start slowly so he (and you) can see that he can do it.

B. ~

Have you checked out www.loveandlogic.com? Many years ago I heard Jim Fay speak on how to parent kids with love and logic and became a believer in his approach. I listened to tapes (it was a long time ago!), read his books and practiced, practiced, practiced my parenting skills with that philosophy as my guide. It works!

The lesson that comes to mind when I read your story is:

"Set the limit once and follow through with empathy and actions…rather than warnings and reminders."

We don't do our children any favors by reminding them repeatedly about their behavior. As Dr. Charles Fay (Jim Fay's son)advises:

"My kids already know most of the things I'm reminding them about."

"Reminding them anyway sends the message that they are incapable of using their brains."

"When I get reminded and warned about things I already know, it ticks me off. Then I often act like a jerk."

"When I give repeated warnings and reminders, it trains my kids to need repeated warnings and reminders."

"They're probably going to have a hard time finding bosses who like to nag them to get their work done."

Please check out their website or your local library for a selection of Love and Logic's easy-to-read and easy-to-understand books, cds, or videos. They truly do provide "tried and true techniques for taking the exhaustion out of raising respectful and responsible kids."

You will be happy you did!

Many blessings ~

Carol

I used to make "useful" punishments. That is, I would make him sweep the front porch, vacuum, or clean something. Serves three purposes: punishment, helped me out, and used up some of his energy.

I have gotten to where i put my daughter in the corner EVERYTIME she does something i don't like. Lies, doesn't clean her room when i say, doesn't eat all her food when i say, it doesn't matter. I put her in the corner for 6min. It's forever for a child. If your child isn't complaining about being there it's not long enough. Make it routine don't do it sometimes when he lies do it EVERYTIME. Don't let him out when he starts to complain wait another 2 or 3 min. He should be annoyed with being there for so long it's he's not it's not long enough. I put her in the corner for every offense not for certain things. She knows if i tell her to do something or i catch her ling or not doing as she's told she will be put in the corner. Talking back is also included.
It won't work if you pick between them they will start trying to negotiate the punishment. Make them not have a choice what the punishment is. good luck

I second the recommendation for 1-2-3 Magic: http://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Ch...
it's a fairly quick and easy read and, if you follow this guy's suggestions (which are simple but direct), it does work. sounds like exactly what you need: guidance on how to redirect your son, effectively discipline, and increase the amount of positive reinforcement you're getting.
good luck!

It sounds like you have a lot on your plate. Your son may be reacting to not getting as much attention. But even though I don't have multiple children or a boy, boys really can act out and push boundaries a lot because of all that energy. Maybe you can find ways of tiring him out as behaivor incentive, like the park or swimming or something like that. You do just have to buckle down and let him find out what it feels like to not get what he wants when he behaves badly or doesn't respond the way you want him to. Try explaining thebehavior you want first, then if he doens't do it, enact the punishment. It's gotta hurt, and he may cry... a lot. Whatever punishment it is, sometimes it will affect your other children. Now if they have to be taken out of the store, or don't get to finish up what they are doing because of him, there will be a problem that atleast your 4 year old will probably let the older one know about it someway privately. And when the 4 year old gets to do something that your older son wants to do but can't because of behaivor, that may have an effect.

Good luck. I hope that's a little helpful.
A.

You have 2 responses recommending 1-2-3 magic and one recommending the stop light method (which is also 1-2-3 magic). Since time-out doesn't seem to work you will not be too excited about the 1-2-3 magic, but I implore you.... TRUST THESE MOMS! But don't waste time on the book.... you have 3 children. Go to the library and get the video.... it's AMAZING.... Good luck and God bless!! I know you can get this under control so your other children don't suffer a loss of your attention. :) --------------------- Also I should say that even though it's a VERY simple program don't try to do it with out watching the video or reading the book. It's the small rules that we wouldn't think of that make it work.

Your son sounds like a very spirited little boy. I would suggest reading the book "Raising your Spirited Child" it is very helpful in figuring out your child and what to do about the behaviors that are a bit on the extreme side.It doesn't sound like your son has ADHD. Your son sounds like an extovert which is a child that gets their energy from being around other people and talking a lot. The book will give you ideas and tools to make the situation better and learn to work with him instead of against his nature. It has done wonders for understanding and accepting my son and his temperment. In the meantime just take it easy because your son may also be feeding off of your anxieties, fears and frustrations which will make the situation worse. In a way your husband is right, you need to not get so wound up about his behavior because it contributes to the intensity of the problem. If you can remain calm maybe your son will notice too.I hope this helps.
Good luck

I just picked up a great book called, "Love and Logic Magic" (especially for the pre-school and younger age). It has given me a lot of great ideas. I have a strong willed two year old and he is really responding to some of the techniques mentioned in the book. You should check it out.

I'd use Ivory soap for the mouth (I only had to do it one time when my son age 7 at the time, was saying bad words on the playground). The next thing to help is try manual labor. Extra chores if he misbehaves. I don't know why, but taking TV, video games, etc...didn't seem to work, but my lazy kid sure hates raking leaves in the yard!
The bigger problem, is that you & your husband are not on the same page. You need some back-up! Especially if he's hardly there...you're the one who should be choosing the battles. You guys need to sit down & come up with what either of you finds to be acceptable behavior & appropriate punishments for what's not. Do not bend the rules ever, or your kid will run you over & it will be even harder to make him behave.
It is hard! My son is 8 now & we've had an awful time with him. I made the mistake of letting his father have him almost 1/2 the time. He's busy trying to be his best friend & let's him act all hyper cuz he thinks it's cute. Yeah, real cute when our kid couldn't keep his mouth shut during school for the past 2 years! His stepdad & I bring down the hammer, straighten him up & then he's out the door & being rewarded by his dad for his horrible behavior.
Now, we've had to teach the 8 yr old's dad, as we teach the 8 yr old, how to be a decent parent & at least have some consistancy. It should be easier for you, because you & your husband probably don't despise each other the way my EX & I do. Lay down the law & don't budge!
Good Luck!!:)

Have you very tried the 1-2-3 magic system? When My daughter was about 3 I started that and it worked. It is very strict and will cause you some grieve at the start, because sometimes in order to punish your child you get punished too.. such as not getting to go do something that they enjoy. We ended up with practically everything my daughter owns in our bedroom, but if you stick with it.. it works. I suggest either going to a class for that or finding the book in a book store or at the library. Also Dare to Discipline is a great book too that has good solid ways to get good behavior.

Hope that helps

Wow! You've got a handful for sure. I don't know if you're a praying woman, but if not, you might want to reconsider that because you're in for a ride with your strong-willed son. I'd teach him that he is the oldest and sets the example for his brother and sister. Does he want them to act like him? If he says, I don't care, say, I'll remind you of this when they start hitting you in the head or doing worse than calling you a butthead. I'd also remind him that when he starts school, he will want friends. No one will want to play with someone who is always getting in trouble. Rules are there to help people get along. Teach him too the difference in being good and doing good. He sounds like a good child who doesn't know how to gauge when he's about to go over the edge. I love that he has such good verbal skills, he's outgoing, probably charming, and fearless. When he says it's so hard being good, then remind him he is good but makes mistakes. It's hard doing bad things, too. Because when you do bad things in our society, people stay away from you, and later you get longterm punishment beyond the spanking. When you are an adult who is always doing things that go against the rules, you get put in time out for really long times. Rules are here to help us, not stop us from having fun. So, when you feel like doing something you know is wrong, why don't you paint, or play your basketball (or whatever you can think of that will calm him down). Some children need to play sports to burn off extra aggression. You and your husband will have to come up with a list of rules and consequences for when he breaks those rules and do not compromise. If he is in the store and he acts a fool, take him out of the store immediately. You might have to try shopping without the children until you come up with a plan. He will probably escalate in behavior before it gets better because your son has learned that he is running the house. When you and your husband get on the same team and are consistent in dealing with him, without letting some behaviors slide, then he'll get the point that he's not in control. It's going to take all summer (and maybe into next year) before he gets the point. Not sure if you make time to do fun things with the kids or if you are busy most of the day responding to the 15-month-old and household chores and hoping he'll play nicely with his 4-year-old sister. If this is the case, let the chores go a bit and try to spend time doing fun things with the first two children so they can learn how to play positively together. You might have to model the behavior you expect from him. And, try not to look for instant results. This is going to take time, because he is just that strongwilled, it seems. Have a plan of how you will deal with him when he goes to school and misbehaves. The school will have a discipline plan, but you need one to reinforce at home. Your husband, if he indeed was like your son as a child, will probably cave a few times because he remembers those days, but you have to remind him that the plan won't work if either of you compromises.

It's not so much punishment that your son needs but to figure out how to burn off all that extra energy. He may have ADHD but you'll know more after he starts school. For now, he needs lots of exercise, attention for good behavior (and chances to show off what he is good at). He also needs nutritious food (try Feingold.org) and you may see a big change if you take out the artificial preservatives, color, and flavors. Some kids have problems with certain foods that have salicylates (similar to aspirin), including apples and grapes and tomatoes. It sounds crazy and like a lot of work but my son would punch someone within a few minutes of eating ketchup. We'd give a few M&Ms to keep him up when we didn't have time for a nap as a toddler and had no idea that it was the dye and not the sugar that made him hyper. Cutting out apple and grape juice calmed him down a ton. Changing our grocery list was a whole lot easier than having a kid who was in trouble.

On the craziest days, running the bases at an empty ballfield worked wonders. He liked the running and the attention - I'd cheer for him as we pretended that he had a home run. He was really wiggly and really silly and got in a lot of trouble. He may have known right from wrong and felt sorry afterward but his brain didn't stop him from acting before thinking. And punishing him afterward didn't help him improve although I always made him make amends.

Now he is off to college to study theater and music - still looking for attention, still way too busy, but also creative and fun and smart. Still in trouble sometimes but I still try to use humor as much as possible to guide this young man who would really prefer that the world revolve around him and only him.

It gets better when they are old enough to read and write and keep their hands and minds busy while you take care of the little ones. Meanwhile, your little ones are learning how to share attention and will be all the better for it.

Good luck.

hi, I raised 3 wiggly girls, and found that if you focus their interests, you may have better results in getting him to control his impulse to mis-behave. Does he like to draw? Does he like to Fish with his Dad? Would he like to build something?
Sometimes children dont get tired enough to slow down; take him to the park and let him go wild there. Hiking and maybe a kid type camera? and rock climbing (controlled invironment). What is he interested in? That could help encourage him to focus on that instead of being wild. And, i know you said you tried everything, but i think if you keep a list of the things you tried and see what even came close to keeping him focused, then you may have a better idea of what would work.
You could try getting him diagnoised for this as well, but before you do that, check out his room or other invironment and make sure that he isnt getting exposed to some chemical; his diet too could play a part in the behavirs. I was told that a bananna before bed calms a person (because of the chemicals in it) so look into that. Hope this helps

Try not to listen when he says "I don't care." and just stick to your guns. I am a teacher and every kid says that when they get a punishment. But they sure do care when I'm talking to their parents or the principal! It means he is getting a little more sophisticated in his interpersonal relationships- he's growing up! Don't give up, in my opinion, all kids have their hard things and easy things, and it usually all works out to be fair in the long run. My own son was such a difficult baby, but much easier as a toddler than the average baby. Now he's a preschooler and as stubborn as they come. My daughter was a much easier baby, but she was such a horrible sleeper- she was waking up 3-4 times a night until she was a year old. So when you are in the supermarket and you see the other kids that are seemingly angels, remember that they probably have some issues too, or at least they have or will at some point. And try to do something fun with him every once in a while, so you don't have to feel so exhasperated with him. Like going to the park or something maybe without his sister, where he couldn't possibly get in trouble just so YOU can have an enjoyable time with him. It's so hard to enjoy them when they're going through a tough stage... try to see if you can at least a time or two a week. Keep your chin up... this too will pass!

The best thing you can do is plan your next shopping trip with a relative or friend. Don't let your child know the other person is going shopping, too. When the child starts acting up. Call the other person, who should be close to the same store you're at. Tell the child if he can't settle down, the friend will take him home and you will continue shopping and he will get no treats.

He acts up---you call friend---ask him if he'll settle--if not, immediately have your friend take him out of the store and home. Yes, even if he is kicking and screaming.

It might take more than l time of doing this, but if your child gets the idea you won't put up with it. It should stop!!
Grandma N.

This may sound simple, but have you tried ignoring the behavior. If you son is seeking attention any attention will do.Also, when he does do the behaviors you want try instant rewards/positive reinforcement. Start small, if he goes a couple of hours without doing undesired behavior reward him by saying something like "you haven't called your sister a name all morning I am so proud of you". Then increase it to a day, 2 days etc. This is called shaping. It doesn't matter how you do as long as you start small. You can do this with any behavior. I tried it with potty training my son. It worked for getting him to sit on the potty. He would sit there for 5 minutes or more eventually, but I wasn't able to get the timing down for when he actually needed to go, but it would have worked if we could have done that.

I can totally relate to what you are saying. I have a 6 year old daughter who was constantly giving me trouble. She was finally diagnosed with ADHD this year and the medication she has started has helped immensely. I would suggest reading a book call "1-2-3 Magic Effective Discipline for children 2-12." There is also a Christian version of the book, co-authored by the same guy. I don't agree with everything in the book but a lot of it has helped me with my daughter. It helped me take some of my emotions out of discipline, because my daughter was playing on that (i.e. making comments that she didn't care when I took thing away, she doesn't like to behave...). If the problems continue I would talk with my pediatrician and if you have the resources a psychologist as well. I hope things work out for you, I understand how hard it is dealing with a difficult child.

I am going through this exact same thing with my soon-to-be 5 year old son. Well, several nights ago I was at my wits end and I was desperate to try anything. A while ago when he was doing the same types of things the idea occured to me that maybe he was eating too much sugar. So since then we have cut all sugar out of his diet. It has helped some already. I have 6 kids and he has been the only one that sugar affects him like this. About a year ago when we were going though this same thing and I had to cut sugar out of his diet, it took a good week to week and a half until he was acting normal and appropriately. I really believe sugar affects some kids differently. He knows too that I won't give him any sugar and he has stopped throwing fits about it. He thinks more about what he is doing before he does it too. Pretty interesting....
One other thing I was going to mention and I know it seems extreme is you may want to have him tested for autism. I have a good friend who her son was acting up all the time and seemed to be unusually hyper always and turned out he has a really mild form of autism. They are working with him now to help control it. Who would have known? I don't want to scare you, but if cutting out all the sugar in his diet doesn't change anything, you may want to consider at least talking to the pediatrician about the possibility. Just a thought. I wish you all the best, I know it is hard but stick in there!

Hi B.,

All the advice is great but I thought that I would throw one more out there. I teach preschool and whenever there is a child who has trouble with behavior, I make a calendar chart. it is a blank calendar with no days or numbers. Each time a child follows the rules (or the activity in which we are participating), he or she gets a sticker. If they don't follow the rules, no sticker. I thoroughly explain the "rules" to the child beforehand and keep the calendar visible. The child can only earn stickers, they can never lose a sticker. At the end of each group of 5 (or 7) stickers, there is a prize. For example, going to get ice cream or in my case, getting to be the line leader. The key is to make it easy for the kids to earn the stickers. In your case, explain to your son that the chart is for good behavior. So, each time you go to the store and he follows your rules, give him a sticker or each time he says something nice to his sister, give him a sticker. In my opinion, we as parents need to try to set our kids up for success. Another thing, be consistent. The prizes should be small, like picking out the family movie or game for the evening once he has earned his stickers. My reaction to my students when they don't earn a sticker is "you didn't earn your sticker this time because... but there will always be another chance". Try to ignore the bad behavior and praise the good behavior. (hard, I know, but it really does work). Good luck.