"Love and Logic" Parents

Never read the book but as far as the tub...when I was ready for my kids to get out of the tub I would let the water start draining. Once there was hardly any water left they were ready to get out too:)

I try to say yes to my kids as much as possible but when I say no I always mean it. When my kids were real young (8months to 4 years) they got away with nothing. If I said no or stop for example I would only say it once or twice before I physically got up and stopped the behavior (not aggressively or meanly though). As a result my kids knew I meant what I said. It is a huge pet peeve of mine when parents say stop and the kids don't. For example... Stop jumping on the couch Johnny. Johnny, I said stop jumping on the couch voice exscalating...Johnny, did you hear me? I said stop! STOP IT NOW! And still Johnny continues to jump on the couch UGH!!!

I also did not read the book, but I like to give my kids choices to give them some control (when possible).

The example of asking your kids if they want to open the drain or do they want you to do it is a good one. If my kids won't make a decision, then I may follow-up with, "if you won't choose/decide, then I am going to open the drain." Sometimes they might still get mad, but then I can emphasize that I gave them a choice and they didn't pick and the consequence was that I opened the drain. And maybe next time they can make a different choice.

I also try to give them warnings of what is about to happen, particularly if they may not like it. Using the bath example, I might say, "In 2 minutes, you have to get out of the tub." Then, I may give another warning that says, "You have 1 more minute." When the time is up, then I say, "Okay it's time to get out of the tub, do you want to pull the drain or should I?".

In the case of the bath example, you can plan ahead. Say that you want them to get out by 10 minutes. You can give them the warning at 8 minutes and even ask, "Do you want to get out now or in 2 minutes?" If they get out now, you are ahead of schedule. Otherwise, you get them out at 10 minutes as planned. Either way, it can feel like it's their choice to them.

I am a big fan of Love and Logic. I think Julie G. explained it best. You determine your non-negotiable issues, then with everything else, give them two choices (both of which you can live with): Do you want corn or peas with dinner? Do you want milk or orange juice with breakfast? Do you want to play for 5 more minutes, or have a bedtime story? Do you want to wear your pink hat or your purple hat to school today? This way, they're still eating their veggies, still getting to bed on time, still wearing a hat when they leave the house..You still have the power, but they think they do because they're getting to choose. And don't forget the one-liners to diffuse arguments. I like "probably so". I use it when my daughter starts getting verbally abusive with me. I keep repeating it calmly and nonchalantly until she gives up. It usually puts the kibosh on it pretty quickly when she has nobody to argue with.

I like some of the stuff in that book..... When you ask when they want to come out of the bath, you give them options. You don't let them pick the time. So, do you want 2 or 4 more minutes? But you ask it in a way that makes them think they are really choosing. So I go into the bath and say," you about ready to get out? How many more minutes do you want? 2 or 4?" My 3 year old usually just says "I want 4 minutes." Then when it's time to turn off the water, give another choice: it's time, do you want to turn the water off, or shall i?"

When I ask my daughter to get ready to leave the house, she will sometimes say to me, " can I have two minutes to finish what I am doing?" Before, she would just ignore me. Now she at least says, "hey mom, I'm playing with my fairies, can I finish up real quick, and then we will go?"

The idea behind love and logic is that YOU decide when they must tow the line. So on top of safety, management of a schedule is a must for many of us, especially when trying to get three little people in bed. The enforcement is the key here. To enforce by Love and Logic, I let time itself do the enforcing. With my kids, I set a limit: lights out at this time, if you want books, you need to be ready for bed (PJs, teeth, toilet), or you won't have much book time. I let them know how much time they have left, and I let them know that if they'd rather do X than Y, that is fine, but they can't complain when they have no book time. It's "their choice" how they use their time, but there is only so much of it. Does that make sense?

In short, you let your kids make choices all day but you get to pick the options, and you should select options that you can live with ;-) I find the Love and Logic approach to be a super manipulative way to control kids. I don't see the "Freedom" aspect, instead, I see you setting the options, and them having to make choices within them.

I don't ask my kids questions like that. I say "In 5 minutes you need to come out of the tub." Mine would never be ready... they'd stay in there until they were little prunes.
I was not a fan of Love and Logic and I though the text was poorly written. Some of the concepts I agreed with, but many I thought were too hard core for my parenting style.
If you'd like another recommendation for books, I much prefer a book called "The Secret of Parenting. " I'd also recommend "How To Talk So your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk."

ETA: While I agree that kids don't have a good concept of time it's more about preparing them for what happens next than expecting them to get out in exactly 5 minutes. I think the important thing is what you've already said. You can give choices when it doesn't adversely affect other people but otherwise they have to do what you say.

I try "do you want to let the water out, or do you want me to do it?" The answer is sometimes "no", but it works more than it doesn't. I have only listened to one L&L CD, so I don;t know how well that fits, but I TOTALLY empathize with getting 3 kids ready for bed - and I am not doing it on my own!

Good luck (and a big hug too)!
e

My kids are a tad older. Trust me...Parenting gets a tad more difficult if you have not set limits ! Esp if you have a "Spirited" child !

I read part of the bk a long time ago.

I agree w/ you about safety.

A good parenting teacher will let you know that a routine w/ limits and some choices... and love is the perfect combo.

When kids are little they need a bedtime routine that is enforced. When my kids were in 1st grade I gave them a choice to stay up a half hr later on the weekend.

When they got older, they wanted phones. I told them age they could have them. They had to WAIT for that age. Or you can ask this question, " Would you like to get a phone at age 13 or 14?" If your child wants a phone at 13, but begs for one at age 12. That's when true parenting comes in. I would say, " I hear that you want the phone earlier, but, that was the agreement! Do you want to make a calendar and staring crossing off the 4 months left to go?"

1-2-3 Magic is a great technique to use. One day, my child was drawing and I was finishing up in the kitchen. I asked her to bring her dishes over and put them in the dishwasher. She kept coloring. I washed the 2 remaining pans. Then, I asked her for the dishes. She did not get up. I said, "That's 1. That's 2". She got up before I got to 3. This technique has always worked for me (If it's carried out appropriately).

I have taught parenting for years ! A couple chores every week are soooo important !!! I have not emptied the dishwasher in yrs. There are so many reasons why kids should do some chores.

I give limited choices! Not everything is a choice...
I pick my battles, too.

Good for you for establishing a set routine and setting limits.

I haven't read love and logic.... but I don't believe the premise of the book is that you no longer set limits and enforce them..... that would be ridiculous.

I think, to some degree, it's simply a semantics conversation. You frame a boundary. Now... within that boundary what choices can you provide so that they have some control within the boundary. If your boundary for bathtime is 15 min and you can wash them in 10.... then after you wash you say "Would you like to get out now and read a book, or play in the bath for 5 more minutes?" So... the total allotted time is STILL 15 min. They just get to choose how it's spent.

Overall, I tried to insist on my way rarely and only when it mattered. OR when I would have to deal with the consequences. So, I never argued about her wearing a jacket, for example. She can be cold. Her choice. What to wear to bed? Don't care. jeans and a halloween costume? Whatever.
But - what she wore to my mom's 65th birthday photo? COMPLETELY my call. And I would be up front about that she got choices when she got choices. But if I played a "mommy card" it was non-negotiable. Eventually, she could anticipate what I was going to say and try and make a choice ahead of time so she could still have control. so she would ask "Is it dressy?" and then come out wearing something fancy of HER choosing.

Saying 5 minutes then out is you can expect them to do. BUT a kid often has no concept of time until they have been in school, maybe even 1st grade. So if they don't "get" it don't be surprised. They can start to comprehend that 5 minutes is less than an hour or something like that but they really don't know one number from the other as far as time goes.

I'd say that's not the time to give them time choices. Let them choose with washcloth they want, the white one or the blue one, or which toy they want this time, the duck or the nesting blocks, do they want the monkey shampoo or the strawberry kind. These are choices that are acceptable. They are not ones that make any difference to you time wise.

Letting them choose lots of things like that that don't really matter will give them the illusion that they are making big choices and are learning to make decisions.

I think it's wonderful that you are working on this. Good for you.

My boys are older, too, 8 and 15, but when they were younger we handled things just like Julie G. did. They thought they made a lot of the choices, but they were within the bounds that I set. With the bathtub example, if I needed them out of the tub at 7:00, then I would give them the option of 2 or 4 minutes more at 7:56 (or earlier). I did this with everything.

My husband and I used Love and Logic consistently all the time, and now the boys are really easy to parent as older children. Love and Logic fit well with our natural parenting style, so it was easy to implement. I hope you have luck with it, as well.

Seems to me 'asking' and 'telling' are two different things. And clearly if you 'ask' they will choose the most wonderful nice option for them. Given choices, (especially with three kids) you obviously do want to let them know but of course we know you are nice from other posts, given the option of perhaps two or three minutes or five or ten or whatever and that's it. You always sound like a great parent so I am sure you do fine.