I've Entered the "No" Zone- HELP

One of my favorite books is Love and Logic. It's very easy to read and makes a lot of sense. Also 1-2-3 Magic. I never tolerate disrespectful behavior from my kids toward me or each other. It is at the top of my not happening list.

Yelling is very rarely effective. You don't want her yelling at you, why do you yell at her? You're demonstrating she's in the driver's seat when you cry and let her have the upper hand. It's a power struggle for both of you.

When I get angry I try to whisper or tell my kids I'm sorry I can't discuss this right now. I have to cool off and think so I don't say something I'll regret. Another response I have down is I'll be happy to discuss this with you when you're as calm as I am.

Two things.

One, you have to stop the screaming. YOU have to. She's a child. You can respond with consequences for her if she screams at you, but you cannot scream at her. And this may be semantics, but for me, there is a real difference between screaming and yelling. Yelling just means you're loud. Screaming means you are out of emotional control completely. You cannot allow yourself to continue to act out towards her when you don't have control of yourself. Take a time out for yourself if you have to.

And two, whatever do you mean that she screams "I'm sorry" and you say "your sorries don't mean anything to me"? That is a terrible thing to tell a child. Do you not want her to feel remorse for poor behavior/choices? Or do you just want to make her hurt? Because that is what you are accomplishing with that bit of childishness. Of course she gives you attitude after you tell her that her feelings of remorse mean NOTHING to you.

You really need to figure out how to get a handle on YOUR emotions. This is not healthy. And your daughter is only 8. She is learning what you teach her.

Your daughter is learning by watching you, and what you're seeing in her is the younger version of yourself.

The screaming and crying has got to Stop. I mean you, mama. You have to be the example by staying calm, logical, and not losing your composure. Never get into a screaming match with her. Dragging her by her arm and making threats has to end as well. Keep silent and leave the room until your emotions are under control. Basically, put yourself in an adult 'time out' rather than the other way around.

Your daughter's behavior problem can not not be solved until you can first solve your own. You are not in control of yourself, so you don't have power or authority over your home either.

i think single parenting is such a hard row to hoe. so first of all, kudos just for surviving.
but since this is the row you're hoeing, you need to hoe it as well as you possibly can. and when you let things devolve into screaming matches with your 8 year old, the weeds are strangling you out.
screaming and bawling are understandable, but you've got to stop. whatever it takes to stop YOUR end of this has got to happen. go to therapy, bite a washcloth, punch a pillow, sing 'never gonna give you up,' or make her read dr suess's one fish two fish red fish blue fish aloud with you for 3 pages every time you butt heads. i don't know what will work for you and your daughter, but you're her mom and you've got to find it.
she's 8. she's not a baby, and she's of the age of reason, but she's only 8 and not wise or mature and she doesn't have coping mechanisms any more than you. she has fewer. this is on you.
i can understand her fierce desire for 'fairness'. if mom's go-to is screaming, how is she to learn a better one?
if the only resolution is pushing it to the point of tears and make-up hugs, how will she figure out a calmer way to get there?
it's not that you have an unusually difficult kid who needs therapy to cope. she's doing exactly what you've taught her, and you're both working on ingraining it instead of overcoming it.
i'm sorry if this seems like beating you up. it's not meant to be an attack. but i want you to see that however understandable your responses, you will never get better ones from your little girl until you change yours.
both of you would almost certainly benefit from talking to a calm neutral third party and getting some better coping tools. if you don't want to do that, at the very least sit down with her and hash out some basic ground rules, which include no screaming, no hitting and active listening. (google active listening if you're not familiar with the term.)
you can have good firm boundaries and consequences without screaming and threatening, but you have to commit to them.
it's not too late.
you can do this.
khairete
S.

What you describe sounds like she is like you. Mother's and daughters, faters and sons often tangle because the parent can see themselves in their child. Just being aware can reduce the number of available buttons that kids can pushed.

You're in a battle of wills. No one wins with that. Consider that she is an equal in how she feels, what she needs. She needs to feel she has some control over her life. Both of you are disrespectful. The way to get respect is to give respect.

A simple thing to try is to word your requests without using the word no. It's time to put your Jammie on. After you get them on, i'll read you a story. Or, do you want to put an your Jammie now or when this show is finished. Do you want me to read a story or spend 10 minutes with you when you're on bed? When you give choices, the child's focus becomes making a choice.

She is a little person who is striving to have some control of her life. So give her control when you can. You could have a special dinner for which she chooses the menu. She can help in several ways. She can stir a pot, take food out of fridge/cupboard or set the table. Let her feel as important as you. Of course, what she does is not the same, and it's still important.

You have told us that you lose your power causing you to yell. When you fight with her, both of you lose power. Share your power with her. What gives you power is to let your daughter know she's important, that you respect her, that you have fun together and that you love her no matter how she acts. Ask her how you can tell her to do something so you don't scream at each other. Give choices wherever you can. Would you be glad to do exactly as someone tells you to do? Some bosses are that way.

Together make plans. When kids or adults plan together both has a stake in making the plan work. A plan is an ongoing process. If the plan doesn't work, everyone decides what to try next. How often do you let her have say on what shes to do? How often do you eat together, have fun together? How often do you praise her. Do you complement her when she does something that you like?

I grew up in a family that constantly fought. I believed that I had to do what my parents told me to do. Fortunately, later my mother would explain why I had to do what my father said. I learned to be good. Also, my anger grew. This hampered my gaining maturity. Maybe something similar happened to you.

With counseling, I gained self acceptance. I realized that yelling was not the way to get things done. I eventually dealt with all the things that created my anger and now at 73, I feel confident and capable.

My 16 yo granddaughter lives with me because she couldn't get along with her parents. I have few rules and those are related to safety. She now tells me what she wants and we discuss it. I've only outright said no maybe 3-4 times. She now tests me less often. When I feel that I'm getting angry,.I say,.we'll have to talk about this later and one of us leave the room.

Most of what our kids rebel against is so important that we need to make someone immediatly obey. You can do a version of this for your 8yo. Does screaming work in getting her to mind? No, so try not screaming. Your power exists in how you relate to your daughter. She.will learn how to manage her anger by watching you by feeling loved and respected.

Never fight with a child. When you do, you lower your self to her maturity level. Stand tall, speak in a confident way that acknowledges her feelings. Fake it til you make it. My go to is I know you don't want to do that;.nevertheless you have to. Then I leave.the room. If she doesn't do it when you check later, repeat. Leave the room. For somethings.your request is all you need to say.

You can listen to her and allow what she wants. If she doesn't want to wear jammies,.let her go to bed in her clothes, or in fun suggest that she wear something outrageous. Humor helps me stay cool, help her laugh in a good mood.to go to bed. Build trust snd respect now so the teen years sre better.

My go to parenting book is Love and Logic by Foster.Cline. I suggest a book discussing child development will be helpful.

I went to counseling where I learned much of this. Teaching your daughter how to behave in a kind way works so much better than screaming. Being able to teach and discipline without anger takes time for some of us. Learning to be emotionally unattached is necessary.

Part of being able to do this is to learn to love myself. Do you have friends to call or spend time with? Do you have interests unrelated to parenting? Having my own life separate from my daughter.put perspective to my parenting role.

You need to stop screaming. In some fashion, she is mirroring your behavior. You need to remain calm and be the adult. Do not get dragged into pointless arguments.

Tell her what you want her to do, and then give her a consequence if she doesn't do it. A consequence can be given without any words, and certainly without yelling.

Watch some episodes of Supernanny if you need inspiration. And read the books suggested below. Your parenting needs some retraining.

And don't EVER say things like, "Your sorries don't mean anything to me."

Wow. I LOVE all of the advice you've gotten here. Out of all the posts I've read over the years, these are some of the best. I also love your reaction to the comments and your willingness to make change. That's the sign of a good mom. When you feel like you are slipping, come back to these comments. You can totally do this!

Omg, you need to get hold of your temper. You scream and she screams back. So stop screaming. It's making things worse. Just stop. When you feel your temper flaring, put yourself in time out until you can talk to her without losing it.

Read "how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk" for parenting strategies that don't involve raising your voice.

I had one child who was very emotional and argumentative at that age. Still is. But it started around 8.

Keeping my cool is the only way I can deal with him. Mommy-time-outs. Otherwise I find I say things I regret in the heat of the moment. I can go from utterly cool to wanting to scream when he gets going. It can be under a minute. It's imperative that I don't react.

If you react - then it will never end.

He is very introverted and needs a safe place to land at the end of the day. He is exhausted and cranky. Essentially that's what it is with my kid. We've been to therapy and it's just his personality. So I had to learn to work with it - instead of against it.

I just take a deep breath and leave. Better yet, he goes to his room to unwind. We've been doing that now since third grade. It does work.

As for getting kids to do what you need them to - it's like saying "You set the table please, while mom gets supper finished then we'll eat." If she doesn't set the table, then she doesn't get to eat.

Consequences that are immediate and actually related to the request are much more effective. Rules are rules. I fall back on those rules - so that I have a constant. If you don't help out in this family you don't get to enjoy/join in (if you don't get your pajamas on, then no story).

One time I said to our son: How many times do I have to tell you to do x before you do it? To which he replied: Well, Mom, usually 6. I think kids know us even better than we know ourselves.

What we did with our son was to post in the fridge the Big Things he had to do each day: brush teeth, fix bed, have breakfast, etc. And, then, as he did them he checked them off. I introduced the idea by saying: You know how much you hate my nagging you? I hate it even more than you do. It is up to you whether or not I have to keep nagging you. List make a list of what you have to do each day, and let's work towards you doing them on your own without me reminding you.

It took a few months before every Big Thing was checked off. There was a significant amount of lying (Mom, I took a bath! Really, then why is the tub dry?) Now, however, he's pretty good about doing the Big Things (which have changed in nature over time) on his own...cause it is way easier to do the Big Things than to be nagged again.

In addition, every step of the way I "made a fiesta" every time he did anything resembling "The Big Thing" A bed half made, was a high five...cause enough high fives and then he began to really make the bed well cause he wanted more of them. So, we really, really, really reinforced anything that looked like the desired outcome.

I think when they are younger, we are in the process of creating a relationship that lasts a lifetime. It can be based upon punishment, or it can be based upon helping kids to "own" their behavior by collaboration. A 4 year old can't decide how they spend their day, but they can have input, and 8 year old can help define the rules--the end game is a kid who choses to do what they need to do and can do it without being prodded. (Something I forget...so this post is to remind myself!).

Wow.
That would push on my last nerve.
Yelling and screaming isn't working - and I know it's hard to do - but look for where your trigger is to getting you in a shouting match - and then disengage and walk away from it.
When our son was 3 or 4 - sometimes I gave myself a time out - a chance to regroup and pull myself together.
I told him "Mommy needs a nap".
He'd tell me "I don't want a nap".
Me: "That's fine. You don't have to. MOMMY needs a nap. If you can be quiet you can stay near me.".
He hated being in any room without me - so he'd go with me when I went to lay down - and he'd end up napping too.
We both felt a lot better afterward.

With an 8 yr old - try not being her entertainment director.
Maybe make one or two suggestions - and if 'no' is all you get - then leave her to herself and go do something YOU want to do.
She can amuse herself or mope or what ever - it's not your problem.
So she says "no", you say "ok!" and walk away.
It will take some practice to get it down but I think you'll feel better in not going to a screaming place.

My best friend in high school had 7 brothers and sisters - and her Mom was barely 5 ft tall.
ALL her kids were way taller than she was.
Her kids all knew when Mom got quiet - they were in BIG trouble.
She'd never shout when mad - she'd almost whisper - and they had to get quiet to listen.

I want to tell you that you have caused ALL of this mess. And it is a mess. You are fighting with her as if she is a boyfriend or a husband. Bawling and saying "Your sorries don't mean anything" are what one says to another adult, not a child. You are expecting her to think like an adult. This is what you get instead.

Bawling and fighting with her gives her all the power. She does not want the power, either. Kids need and want limits. It's your job to provide them.

You need to take parenting classes. Do it before she gets any older.

Okay, listen-- if you are screaming at each other, time for family counseling. NOW.
There's no reason you should be screaming at her unless there is a safety/danger concern imminent. None. You are both locked into a very bad dynamic of reacting to each other.

"Taking Charge: Caring Discipline That works at home and at school" by JoAnne Nordling... this book was written with you in mind, D.. Joanne cofounded a couple of parent/child resource clinics here in Portland and this book was written for parents who are stuck in either/or situations (either one screams/spanks the child or doesn't know what to do and ignores the behavior).... I believe this will not only help you to see more objectively your own part in this, it gives you help in assessing misbehaviors and specifies what sort of responses be effective. Yet, I do think you both need counseling as well. This isn't so much 'she has emotional problems' as you two have baggage to hash out and frankly, she's having emotional problems WITH your manifested emotional problems. You need to figure out where you learned to behave this way, why, what result you think will come of it/what result you are trying to achieve so that you can be in relationship with others amicably. If I flew off the handle and started yelling and crying at my son (9)because he said 'no' to me, it would be very scary and confusing for him. *I* am supposed to be the parent, the one in control. If I fail him in that, that shakes his sense of security that I'm going to be in charge and that things will be fine. If I couldn't handle a conflict with a child, he will wonder how I might handle something he would perceive as far more threatening. It undermines the sense of confidence for both of you. Go work on this. Don't be afraid.

It's hard to admit when we are on a poorly-chosen path, but it's more difficult for our souls when we stay on it and KNOW we shouldn't. The resources are available. If you don't know where to start, go talk to the school counselor and ask for a referral/recommendations. It's critical that you learn how to get this under control or this will continue to damage both of you.

Hi D.,

I completely agree with the posts below. I see you've had a great deal of input but I'll chime in with my 2 cents as well. First, you have got to stop yelling and threatening. you are modeling terrible behavior and teaching her absolutely no coping skills. it makes me wonder what your relationship was like with your mother. we do what we know until we know how to do it differently. the book that was a life saver for my emotionally intense son was Parenting with Love and Logic. She sounds like an intelligent girl and clearly she knows how to get your goat and move the focus from her refusals to your behavior. here are a couple of ways I managed my DS when he engaged in this sort of behavior, because they all do at one time or another.

"when you can calm down and speak to me with respect we can discuss this further."

"you have two choices. you can either do X or Y." of course, always make sure the choices are ones you can live with. there is no choice about bed but she can have a choice about which pjs she wears. this will empower her within reasonable boundaries and will narrow what is clearly a very overwhelming environment for her.

it's hard not to take it personally but don't. she is begging you for boundaries and a sense of security and safety. you are the mom and she should not be responsible for your emotional wellbeing. it's way too much to place on her tiny 8 year old shoulders. If you're thinking about therapy, I would recommend getting yourself seen and sorted out before you bring her into it.

wishing you well, S.

I have a 9 year old and there is no way she would get away with screaming or yelling at me. Sometimes there are situations where you may need to raise your voice but screaming should be out of the question. When emotions are high your both need to go to neutral territory away from each other for a little bit and then revisit the problem.

My daughter is an only child so she often has "nothing to do". I will make a couple of suggestions and if they aren't good enough she's on her own. At this age you don't have to entertain her. I think your daughter feels that she is on your level and you need to let her know that she isn't. I have to remind my daughter sometimes that I'm the adult and she is the child when she goes overboard. We are not in the friends zone yet. That will be reserved for college. Good luck!!

I really love the replies so far!! You have obviously done a great job so far, and she sounds like a great kid. So it's not that you have done things wrong up to this point- you are an emotional person and that's how you parent, totally nothing wrong with that. But yep, now that she's getting older, looks like it's time to change things up. And she obviously admires you, because she is becoming you!! :-) But as she gets older, screaming and spanking (or threats of it) will no longer work, I think you are seeing that for yourself. So it's just time to evolve as a parent, and she will evolve as well.

I wanted to throw one more book suggestion into the mix. It's called Between Baby Dolls and Boyfriends. And your daughter is the perfect age for you to read this- it's all about raising a tween girl, and includes info on their budding attitudes. I want to say I read it when my kiddo was 11, and I wish I'd had it a couple of years before. Anyway, you have a long reading list, but maybe just what you need to reset!

Good luck, let us know how things go. And I think you're awesome for being so willing to reach out!

Google "living with a tween". There's a cute meme/article/poster about living the all those different people that live inside your tween. I often see the kiddo that still likes to play toys and is sweet and wants to snuggle. Then the angry old lady comes out and spoils it all. Or maybe the best friend comes along and wants to do girl stuff together.

Being 8 and all the way up to 15-16 is hard. Their bodies are changing, they are growing adult teeth in a kid body and it's painful, a low dull ache they often are too busy to notice until they start hurting a lot or they pop through the skin and kiddo is completely surprised to find a new tooth in the gum area in back.

Midol, half probably, can be your friend. When she's particularly angry or moody see if Midol is something you think you'd give her. It's for cramps, I get that, but it also has Tylenol and some other stuff in it that is really helpful. I worked for master's degree RN as a nanny and she told me to do this. I would give her kids half of one to a whole, depending on their weight, as young as 7 or 8 and I can't tell you what a change came over the kids that were having a rough day. From knock down fighting to laughing and coloring at the table together in about 20-30 minutes.

This age is harder than adolescence because you don't expect it. It's not the age, young teens, that is the most talked about but to me it's the most difficult of all.

Get her dad on board too. Let her know, from both of you, that her behaviors won't be allowed.

As for grounding her for a week, that's too long. Our boy responded MUCH better to losing it for an hour. I swear! He lives in an instant gratification world and having it gone for a week was no impact at all. It was out of sight out of mind within a few hours. He was on to something else that he was focused on.

So we started taking it for an hour. Then he could earn it back sooner by doing chores.

The goal isn't to punish bad behavior but to reward good behavior, so getting to perform those good behaviors to get their item back is a two edged sword and gets them in the habit of doing things "I" want them to do.

My son is 7 and I was at my wits end with him too, gawd, i know how you feel!!
I was so tired of hollering at him. It wasn't daily but I just hated our interaction getting to that point. So I ordered 1 2 3 Magic. I haven't even finished the whole thing but have started what I read. It's so ridiculously helpful. I've read several before but this is good stuff. Just give it a shot. Can't hurt. I bought it used off amazon. Good luck mama, it's tough.