he's the scenario:
an acquaintance/friend from church wants to rehash decisions she made with a grandmother who died on Hospice last year. She told me on email that she is struggling with some things and having a hard time with it and could my husband (who does Hospice work) talk it over with her.
So here's the deal on our end. I'd love 30 minutes to talk to my husband about anything, but he works non stop and we have three kids. So we rarely have a few moments to spend together.
We can't blow her off. She's too intrenched in our social circle and we're not rude people and don't want to make her feel bad. My M.D. husband is always willing to help people with their current medical choices, but this is not that. This is woulda coulda shoulda stuff from a very high maintenance type of emotional female.
I ran it by hubby and says, " just tell her he'll talk with her at church next time we see her." I hope that will work. (he knew her in college and she kind of drives him nuts).
Unfortunately, I"m to go between. I want to protect my husband's time. Like I said, if only i could get a full block of his undivided attention to hash out all my woulda coulda shouldas. but alas, our lives are too hectic.
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its difficult because her email does not specifically state what she needs or wants to ask. She may be able to call my husband, get some really great information that puts her at peace and everyone is happy and he'd be happy to help. But its just one of those things where you may just get sucked into a vortex of someones drama and emotions. You just don't know going into these things. Hopefully she's happy enough to talk with him at church where we are too busy with kids to get too sucked in. It would be great if he can give her the answers or direct her to the resources she needs. I am after all reading into her email some.
My husband wanted me to be his gate keeper and she didn't contact him, she contacted me.
He needs to be able to leave work at work. Tell her that if she wants to talk to him to make an appointment with him at his office.
I am going to go on a different angle. I dont like any oher woman talking to my significant other. However, I, too, have a hard time with grief after death. To satisfy his situation. I would say, okay let US know what day you want US to come over to talk with you.
ETA - PLEASE listen to JessicaWessica. She gives excellant advice. Really and truly.
Original:
I don't think this should be about protecting your husband's time. I think this should be more about your friend needing a professional to talk with.
I would be VERY wary of your husband talking to her BECAUSE he is part of hospice. I actually think that she could somehow put the responsibility of her choices that she is upset about onto HIM. Makes very little sense perhaps, but she is grieving and grief does this kind of stuff to someone who is so emotional and fighting something.
Instead, he needs to talk to his hospice group and get a phone number from them for someone who she can talk to on a PROFESSIONAL level. Your husband needs to stay out of it after giving the contact number to her, kindly but firmly. Honestly, you both are going to really regret it if he engages in this conversation with her.
I don't believe she'll be talking to him as a friend. I think she'll be talking to him as a professional. And I think that this isn't just about her grieving... I think it's about her trying to decide if she needs to file a lawsuit of malpractice or negligence.
This just has the thick, heavy feeling to me, that your friend is questioning some if not all of the choices that were made and is likely thinking that she wasn't given all of the options, didn't have the options explained thoroughly enough, wasn't informed enough, etc. I would bet that she's wondering if things had been done differently would her grandmother still be alive, or would she have lived ____ weeks/months/years longer. "Did the nurses/doctors advise her and her family appropriately" will be the type of questions she wants to ask but those are dangerous questions for your husband to answer as a professional because he wasn't there and I think he would be inadvertently inserting himself into a very bad legal situation. He may become her "expert" in the matter unwittingly and unwillingly.
She could go to a lawyer and say, "I was advised by Dr. Jane that my family wasn't given all of the appropriate information and in fact there were several more options we could have chosen from. Had we known that, we would have chosen differently and my grandmother might still be here."
And what sucks about this? She will have selective memory. She'll give your husband a sterilized version of events and your husband would base his opinion on her unprofessional viewpoint without having the full medical files, etc.
That's my long way of saying that you should respond to her e-mail with what OnePerfectOne said and if she hits your husband with anything similar to what I suspect then HE is going to have to tell her, "This is too complicated for me to advise you about as an outsider. I have a contact for you with the _______ and a counselor that I trust named ______. Here, I wrote it down for you. I'm so sorry for your loss, and I wish I could help you more."
I would let her know that your husband isn't privy to the details of her grandmother's medical care, as he wasn't a caregiver. If he doesn't have her medical records, he can't really offer guidance or judgment about the care she received.
My husband is also an MD and we often have to deal with similar situations, and I also protect his off-time because he needs that time to bond with family as well as for his brain to recharge. Do not offer any special phone calls or meeting times, outside of the time you'd see her at church. Do offer to speak with her at church, but preface it with the disclaimer that he doesn't have the medical records, so he can't really give specific medical advice. I wouldn't want her to try to rope him into a malpractice lawsuit down the line if she becomes convinced that the care her grandmother received was sub-par.
You sound like you might be able to benefit from a medical wife support group. If so, you might want to check out this blog, and the accompanying Facebook group. I have found it incredibly helpful with coping with the type of stress that is unique to being married to medicine. http://doctorwives.blogspot.com/
ETA: No, I would not want my husband to have any type of paper trail conversation with her. She can print the email messages, go to a medical malpractice lawyer and say, "See, this is what my doctor friend told me should have happened..." No. Verbal only, and general conversation only. No specific advice, just a friendly and sympathetic ear.
ETA2: I agree with the first part of Fuzzy's reply, but not with the suggestion to have her make an appointment with him in his office. She is not having her own medical problem. The only reason for an appointment with your husband for her would be if she were depressed and needed a referral for counseling or an anti-depressant.
Your husband is a grown man. He can handle her. Don't worry about it. Let them talk. He's smart enough to handle himself, no? I'm certain he can cut the conversation short when he is ready to.
Edit: OK he asked you to be his gatekeeper. How will you be his gatekeeper if he said he'd chat with her at church? You can't. He has to learn how to set this boundary with this pushy, somewhat dramatic woman.
A lot of professionals put up a wall of offering no information and within 10 minutes, it will be obvious she won't get anywhere with him and needs to drop it. Can he do that? If he can't now, that's a skill he needs to work on.
Therefore, what JessicaWessica said is correct. I thought he could handle it. He has do this himself.
Certain professions tend to lend themselves to getting cornered at parties and asked for advice. Those professionals also tend to be the kind of people who do what they do because they like fixing things for others, so it can be hard to say no. However, there are lots of very legitimate liability reasons to refuse the "friendly" advice. Any professional has to keep in mind that giving advice, including analyzing the advice of other professionals, outside of their office setting can open up some serious legal traps. Think worst case- if your husband talks about what he thinks the hospice did wrong, he could get dragged into a court case, depositions, putting his opinion on trial literally. Far-fetched, but not impossible. As a doctor, I am sure he has had to learn how to hedge around giving advice that he does not want to give. But an easy way out might be for you to tell her "you know, I know husband always wants to help as much as he can, but he can get in a lot of trouble if he starts second guessing other hospice providers. It's a small world. But I know he can give you the name of a great therapist/the complaint number for the licensing board/a medical malpractice attorney/whatever else she thinks she needs."
I sympathize. There is a certain type of "friend" who thinks they are entitled to unlimited free advice whenever they have questions, regardless of the inconvenience or the market value of giving that advice! Usually the type of "friend" that would also never think to offer a hand when you need it in return.
I would suggest that you recommend a grief counselor. There is no going back and changing the past and rehashing it is not going to make it any better. The only reason I could see for redressing the issue is if she is once again facing a similar situation and needs advice. Otherwise, he isn't the right professional. She could also talk to your pastor about it.
Let's say you were in that sort of situation? Your grandmother died in hospice and you need to process for a little bit, because things feel bad for you. Or hard for you. Or you just need a little peace.
As Doris Day suggests, maybe it would be kind to have your husband supply this acquaintance with resources for a grief counselor or someone else who manages hospice care. It seems she is needing resources or answers, so giving her some direction would be a kind thing to do. She's probably reaching out to known entities first, thinking that a conversation might make her feel better or put some uncertainties at peace. She may not KNOW she needs more help. So offer resources.
My experience with hospice and some seminars I have attended, I found that most hospice's offer counseling services to family up to one year following the death.
I would suggest referring her to the hospice group that attended her grandmother. Sounds like she is having problems with the decisions she made and maybe is needing help dealing with her own unresolved grief.
Maybe a casual conversation at church will suffice and maybe direct her to get professional counseling.
Sadly, when people have guilt or unresolved issues, they cannot separate from the loss, that regardless, it would not have changed the outcome.
IF she wants to talk to him, then it's not your problem... I would allow him to deal with it and you stay out of it.. as an MD, he should know how to handle such things by now... I would also add that if he made it out of med school and internships, then he should know full well how to budget his time...
It's not your job to manage him as a person... if you don't want to get sucked in into a vortex, then just stay out of it to begin with .. again, allow him to handle it...
What do you mean "rehash" decisions? Her grandmother has passed, what is there to do at this point?
If she is regretting the way she handled things she should contact the hospice organization she used. That's what I would tell her. Your husband really has nothing to do with it. Hopsice offers counseling and support to grieving family members, THAT'S where she needs to go.
You H needs to send an email. I am thinking This is the kind of person where if you put in emotion or match their emotion, then they will hang on that till the cows come home.
He gets one sentence of sympathy.
One sentence giving the names and numbers of helpful counselors he has met along the way. Does not involve himself in the solution.
Don't JADE, justify, argue, defend or explain. Don't say he's busy, his time is spent already, anything.
If you do, she will say, but..and this will be an endless conversation.
There are people who will listen to endless conversations, they are called therapists. A person that has taken over a year to process end of life decisions, needs one.
When he sees her at church, he says, I hope the counselor was able to help you.
She is a friend and fellow human being who is dealing with grief. Wouldn't it be the better thing for him to talk with her (at church or wherever). I am sure he is perfectly capable of providing her with an ear for a few minutes or an appropriate referral if she needs more than he can or is willing to provide. I do not see any reason you should be his gate keeper.
If your lives are too hectic to listen to someone who is grieving for a few minutes or for you and DH to spend 30 quiet minutes together, they are simply too hectic. Perhaps you should consider places to cut back on work and/or scheduled activities and allow some time for breathing, conversation and contemplation.
I really hope that I could call someone from my temple simply because were belong to the same congregation and ask a few minutes of their time. I am certainly willing to provide the same.
Saw a joke once about a doctor who met a lawyer at a cocktail party.
The doctor asked the lawyer what he should do about the friends and loved ones who always asked him for medical advice. The lawyer thought for a minutes and then she said "Give the advice, but end them a bill for your hourly rate." The next day, the doctor received a bill from the lawyer for professional services.
I give a lot of advice about education to friends who ask. It's my pleasure. But when a friend asked me to help extensively with her son's history project, I drew the line. I told her this joke, then reminded her that academic tutors in MoCo make upwards of $60/hr. and she was essentially asking me for $300 in free tutoring. And during my evenings when my own kids needed me. I know it was a bit rude, but she finally got it.
I like Fuzzy's answer below.
No matter... where it is decided that she can talk to him at.... it WILL take longer, than expected. Because, once she latches onto him, for a "talk"... she will drag it on and on and on. And it can be REAL hard, to get away from people like that.
Because, they are not rational and are so emotional and are a vortex of drama... and NOTHING will be, long enough, or good enough of a discussion, for them. I mean, SHE has been dragging this on for ONE YEAR!?
There will be no end... to her need for discussing this.
People like that, don't leave things be.
And they drive everyone nuts.
AND quite frankly... if I were your Husband... I would NOT WANT TO discuss the topic with her... because she WILL.... "quote" your Husband on whatever he says, and then tell other people, and then before you know it.... he can be "liable" for whatever "advice" he gives her. It is not worth it. People like that will also misquote other people or interpret it in their own, misguided way. Because they are a drama vortex. And your Husband, will be the one she blames or praises, for his "advice." Even if it is as a friend. She will take it as PROFESSIONAL advice. And she is not even a patient, of his.
Beware... of her.
She needs a Therapist.
Not your Husband to talk to.
She needs more help than your hubby can give her. She may be suffering much more than she's letting on. Doesn't Hospice have after care for the ones left? He could listen and then tell her he has this "friend" that will know the answers to her questions. Then he can help them meet up.
Her whole world fell apart it sounds like.
Just tell her to talk to your husband about it. He's an adult, you're not his mom, you don't need to be his "gate keeper." He can either say either sure, I'd love to help you with this or, sorry I'm afraid I can't really help you but why don't you call so and so at hospice care?
I think you're involvement makes MORE drama, not less. A grown man should be able to deal with a woman at church without hiding behind his wife's skirt.
"I ran it by hubby and says, " just tell her he'll talk with her at church next time we see her."
So, that's petty much what I'd do.
1. Jessica Wessica has it right.
2. When dealing with emotionally draining types, you should always have an "out." Be sure that a discussion over coffee is in a semi public place, and that your husband has an appointment or place to be at a reasonable time afterwards so the conversation can be wrapped up and he's not there for hours and hours. "I have to leave at 3pm to see a patient."
Tell her that the best way to do it is to send an e-mail outlining her specific concerns. This will give your husband time to carefully consider everything and give her a thoughtful answer, including dodging some questions. Otherwise, when he's not addressing more emergent health needs, he really needs some down time with his family.
Doris Day is right. Also, it is perfectly fine to protect your limited family time.
I understand precious family time with hubby, we don't see each other enough either. Maybe you can ask her to put the questions in an email so he can be prepared for the talk at church due to limited time. In the email you send her, include a phone number for a grief counselor or any other sources your husband may have for her.
Tell her that your husband would be happy to talk to her briefly at church, but that your family has a committment for a certain time. That will keep it short. But if she needs more than a couple of minutes tell her that because of his schedule, it would be best for her to call his office and set up an appointment.
First, she's not looking for medical advice, she's looking for hindsight.
I would suggest to hubby that a woulda, coulda, shoulda discussion is probably not going to give her any peace of mind. She made the decisions that she made; you may find her trying to justify those decision in spite of information/advice hubby gives which does suck you into a lengthy discussion vortex, that is really a waste of time since the decisions have been made, acted on, and the person has passed away.
Your friend is trying to make herself feel better about the decisions she made. To me, hubby doesn't need to know any details - just reassure her that he is sure she made the best decisions she could with the information and knowledge she had and to rehash it won't do anyone any good. I mean, really what if hubby thinks decisions she made were not good ones. Is he going to say that to her? That would make things worse.
Again, I see no need in rehashing decisions that can't be changed and I don't see any comfort or peace coming to your friend as a result of the rehashing.
