A Line in the Sand with Difficult People

When they have proven to me that they have truly changed.

A few years ago I finally told my sexist pig of a father to go to hell and stop communicating with me. I had gotten sick and tired of his Archie Bunker attitude about everything and/or blaming me for everything wrong around my house. If he wanted to see my kids, his ONLY grandkids, he'd have to go through my husband. I wanted nothing to do with him.

About a year ago I started slowly letting him back in my life. He may still have that Archie Bunker attitude, but he doesn't show it when I'm around. I'm still waiting for him to screw up again, but he does appear to have changed since I told him to get out of my life.

I haven't written anyone off "forever"!
BUT I minimize people that are openly hostile, nasty, liars, etc.
Alcoholics & addicts? I deal with them with boundaries. I recognize the fact that they have a disease. If my family & I are not in danger, I try to reach out.

When they change enough to be tolerable.

Well, I don't think everyone's situation is as extreme as mine, so I don't expect that others would have these boundaries...

I've been no contact with my mom for about 12 years now. 12 blissful years, I might add. She knows that if she is willing to do therapy with me, that's where I will see her, in a therapist's office, where there is an actual witness. She has some profound and untreated mental health disorders and will flat out lie, all sorts of crazymaking behavior and is very emotionally dangerous. (She was physically dangerous to us until we became adults.)

In my case, I do write her off forever. With her borderline personality disorder and what's properly termed as "personality disorder with tendencies toward narcissism", she is very highly unlikely to get help. To even admit she needs help. It's very, very sad. My sister and I have chosen to protect our families... mom has done some very bad, bad things to my niece and nephews. It's unfortunate to cut her off, but that's what good parents have to do sometimes. I have low expectations at this point. At first, honestly, it just killed me to do this. It killed me that she didn't love me enough to want to try to make things better. I have cried and mourned this as a death, and for the most part, it's like she's dead. Staying hopeful is not healthy, helpful or realistic; acceptance has been a hard gift, but it's better than living the rest of my life hoping for something that isn't going to happen. I think we all know of situations like that-- it makes people stop living, it makes them bitter. Choosing to move on means living fully in my situation. I'm not sure what yours is, but I know it's a hard place to be in.

For what it's worth, there are boards online like BPDfamily (google it) which can offer support if you are dealing with borderline personality disorder or narcissistic behavior. I suggest this because sometimes, these are unique situations which people who haven't experienced may not understand or may be judgmental of. (I've found in my own life that most people can't relate to our understand my past because they had half-way healthy parents. They can't fathom people acting like my parent did.) Finding people who have 'been there' to advise you could be very helpful. Many people go low-contact successfully with family members who exhibit these sorts of mental illness, so it is possible. Good luck!

ETA: I would be remiss if I didn't add this-- we do have some of the problems you listed with some of the family we are in contact with. We've made very good, strong boundaries with the really problematic behaviors, and also limit the amount of time we spend with them. In short, we actively manage those relationships as necessary.

If they are "jerks" to me or my Husband or my kids.... I stay away.
And if in a group situation of which I have no control and which they are attending as well, I stay away and keep interactions very, minimal and of course, NO personal talk/info given to them not even in simple conversation. Because, they cannot.be.trusted and/or have big mouths and don't know how to keep private things private.

Staying away does not necessarily mean "forever."
It just means, using your common sense and sense of boundaries... and not letting people like that, even if family... ruin, your own family or kids or husband or sense of decency and not, being a doormat.

My thoughts: Re-engage when you decide to re-engage, when you feel like you won't be trapped into old dynamics, if they are family and you love them and can accept that they will never be who you wanted. Otherwise? Bye....

Boundaries are important, and firmer boundaries are needed if these people are potentially dangerous. We have a family member who may not stay with us or be alone with our children...and she think she decided not to stay with us anymore, and seems to be unaware of the "not alone with our children" bit.

Sometimes the distance is just to give me a break from the constant rubbing. Once I feel like I have gathered myself enough and have control of how my feelings manifest, then I can re-engage.

I have disengaged from my own blood relatives. I have disengaged from my husband's relatives. I never go into it thinking that it is forever, and I never feel a need to make an announcement about it. I simply pull back. I decide that I won't show up at some event, or I don't take a few calls. When I'm ready, I just show up at the family event with my boundaries in place.

I am on good terms with all but one of those people. I've got boundaries and won't allow them to touch me in the areas that bothered me so before. I know what I'm dealing with, so I know how to manage myself with them. (Not manage them.)

That other person I don't think I'll ever connect with. I'm not opposed to being in the same room or even conversation with her (though I plan to never speak with her one on one without a witness), but I'll likely burst into flames by kicking my heels together before we shall ever have a relationship. I'm good with that.

Oh, and there's no time limit on disengagement. I have disengaged from my husband for a few hours, from my mother for a few days.... It's all about regrouping and not at all about punishing them. It's like putting myself in a timeout from certain folks/behaviors, after I've noticed that I don't like who I am or how I feel when I am in their company. Maybe that perspective can give you a little more insight to how to best use it for yourself.

We shall see. I am almost at the point of having to make that decision. Because of mental illness (not really treatable without intensive, unwanted therapy), my mil has made terrible decisions that have lead to her being broke and friend/family less. She is not on the street yet. She will never admit to doing anything wrong. She will never stop telling lies or manipulating people. But she can get too old to take care of herself. She needs to o to a nursing home but says she will never do it. I'm afraid if I do take her in, what she would tell social workers. It would be lies but strangers feel so sorry for her. It's like trying to take care of a snake about to strike.

So in answer to your question, I have no idea what to do.

In my experience, people soften with time or crisis. When my addict brother was alive, were were distant for a good 10+ years. I didn't avoid him at family functions or make people choose or anything like that, but outside of family functions, we had no relationship. I was not the sibling he would call when he was drunk or stoned and needed money or a ride or a place to stay. I was the first to have children and let him know that other than doing things for him to help out my parents when they asked me to (e.g. I used to drive him to the methadone clinic when my mom was working early shifts), I would not help him and he never asked.

My husband is estranged from his brother. His brother dated and married my husband's first love, which was a significant relationship for him (it lasted more than 3 years) and caused him a lot of pain. His brother also hid this relationship from only my husband and me - everyone in their family and circle of friends knew for months and months. So they have no relationship outside of holidays and family functions and we limit those to the big functions, weddings and funerals. Things are more cordial, but will always be awkward. The tension lessons as the years go by, but we'll never be those BFF siblings and in-laws.

I've seem families where some terrible hurt has happened and a health crisis - or simply maturity and time, or the death of a parent or sibling - make people realize that life is too short and it's time to grow up and be civilized. But I have friends who come from toxic families where they haven't spent time with people in decades.

It's easier to move on when 'extra' characters are not involved. I think my sisters and I could get back together if we had a get together with just us. No kids, no friends, no mention of the ordeal. Just cook a good soul food meal together and recall old times when our parents were alive. Then, a second dinner with just us and our children. I long for that, but I'm too afraid of it not working that I don't try to do it.

Always.

My side of the street is clean. I have forgiven, let go and moved on.

I don't hold a grudge. I am ambivalent about what happens to my father. I no longer care. I don't love him. I don't hate him. He is simply a person in my universe.

I call on his birthday and father's day out of respect for my mom.

Should he ever want to reach out, or even have a conversation - I am always available. But I'm an adult now, so I know how to hold a polite conversation and keep emotionally reserved.

That's quite a list you have compiled there.
For me that door is always open to anyone (friend/family) that falls under those titles. Most of the time though they don't want to do what it takes or make an effort to change. When they do, like I said, the door is open.
That's my take on it.

Answer of the day award goes to Nervy Girl!!!!

You just describe certain members of my family.

After years of emotional turmoil, therapeutic support, and narcissistic family members who would literally like to destroy my marriage, because I don't focus enough on them.....yes, I made the difficult decision to cut ties, to disengage, to let them go.

Yes, it's a mourning process of shifting gears away from those that should love you, to finding people who really do.

And I want to say this, without a doubt, it gets better. When you assertively stop the craziness, you open the door to find healthier, well-balanced people.

But be forewarned, your tendency will be to recreate some of the same relationships with less than healthy people. Be aware that we have this human flaw. Let those new, bad relationships go, again, and move on, again.

Setting healthy, permanent boundaries is no different than putting up a fence, it needs repair and repainting. You won't get it right the first time, it takes practice to set good boundaries.

HTH!

Drugs/Alcohol...I do not excuse unless they quit
I haven't had to deal with the racist issue
Everything else....I've never cut anyone out...I usually see them once a year/every other year and I'm polite, even to the ones I don't like or agree with.

My grandma is very toxic to everyone she meets. I don't have a relationship with her because she is the most negative person I have ever met. She is the only grandparent left. She is in her late 70's and very stuck in her ways. For example, if I had good news to share, she would make it bad news. If I asked how her day was, it was always something bad, never, ever positive. She would always complain to her daughter, my aunt, that we never call her or want to know how she is. She would always say, "Mom, the road goes both ways." It is incredibly hard to talk to her too. She hardly knows my children, and I'm actually glad. She lives in Tennessee now, previously Florida. She left Kentucky before I was born, so I rarely saw her while growing up. She was adopted by a couple, who thought they could not have kids, only to find out they were pregnant soon after the adoption was finalized. They did not treat her well. She ended up getting pregnant with twins at 16, who were stillborn, then my dad at 18, then my aunt, then left them with her mil, my great grandmother, who I loved. She went to Florida to live and did not see them untill they were late teens. My dad, is very unlike her, mainly because he was not raised by her, thank God! I have tried to have a relationship, and believe her poor upbringing caused some of this, so whenever I do talk, which is rare, I always give her some slack. If what you posted is what you're going through, then my experience pales in comparison to yours. I hope you find solutions to what you may be going through. I hope the best.

I don't think I could ever see myself completely deleting someone from my life, my family just isn't that crazy. However, I did end up having an issue with my mom when I met my husband. I had just divorced and she excitely thought she, me and my kids would live happily ever after. Well, I unexpectly met and married my husband and she made it clear she didn't like him. She would hold things against us that I told her so it got to the point where I had to distance myself and kids from her. I didn't tell her the details of my life anymore and when we went to visit, it was only for a short time, not hanging out all day like we used to. I also moved all the parties and holidays to my house so I could be more in control. Since doing these things, it's actually gotten better with her. On here I actually suggest that to a lot of people. It's crazy what less conversations and time with someone will do for you!!!

It really depends on the severity of the situation. When a relative is *truly* toxic you must set up your boundaries and then not cross them.

People can and do change but you have to wait for it while accepting you have no control over it. It might never happen, but when a toxic person changes they will be the ones to re-engage in a positive way. They will show it in their words and actions. Pursuing rebuilding the relationship before that point is almost always going to end in woe.

We had to cut my mom out of our lives for 6 months or so, but we were fully prepared to have it be permanent if necessary. We re-engaged slowly, with short phone calls. Our relationship is back on track now, but a lot of that has to do with distance (she's 3 states away) and that I have learned to roll my eyes at many of her idiosyncracies and not respond. My responding provoked her, so when I cut off that trigger the problems were minimized. However, if she were to do it again I would have no problem distancing her and cutting her off if needed, I will not allow my kids to become pawns or be exposed to her 'crazy' when she gets that way. My daily actions with her are designed to prevent that from happening, but sometimes narcissistic people fly off the handle even with the most gentle handling.

With difficult people - I am honest with them. I tell them what *I* perceive their problems to be and let them know where the line in the sand is. It often does not mean I am cutting them out, but cutting them down. They won't have full access to my family (mainly my kids) anymore and they won't have me in the same capacity they are used to. If I don't support their choices or views, it doesn't mean I don't love them, I just won't put myself around them as often, and certainly won't agree with them.

I have cut all contact from a sibling who is sociopathic (yes, it has been diagnosed) they are a total manipulator and liar who will manipulate and cause as much drama as possible for their own personal fun.

If I could never have contact again I would...however they are still around the family...some of whom do not see the truth of the situation and think I am a hard hearted female dog.

To me there is no cure for their type of crazy and no point of ever re-engaging.

Each situation would be different.