4 Year Old Power Struggle

Keep up the good work. Never reward the bad behavior. Eventually, he will get the idea that he does not get good results from the bad behavior.

Just keep being consistent, but try to say yes to more before he throws the fits. A little giving might show him that you both want to work on this and not that it is just his problem.

Oh geez does this sound familiar! We've been working on this one. Last fall, it was just awful. I just did a complete 180 and changed my tactics. It was hard because he was just pitching a fit over anything that wasn't his way. You could even be trying to tell him what he wanted to hear or be trying to what he wanted but just telling him a little different and he'd be so set on his goal and so determined that he wasn't getting it that he wouldn't even hear the answer he wanted - it was that bad. And it was all such a shocker because up until then he'd been such an angel and not defiant.

So, I had to think about what was going on. Some of it might be his personality. Fine, but bad behavior is still not acceptable so I'd have to help him learn how to listen and cope with disappointment or delay better (anger management). We could be modeling too angry or intolerant reactions for him to mimic (I know we were and my husband is especially impatient) so that was something that we could and would have to change. There could be stresses like tired, over-stimulated, need for better social skills, lack of routine, competition with adult activities (computer, phone, home business stuff) that could be making him act out or fight for attention any way he could and those were also things that I could work on. And what about consistency of rules and discipline (that is soooo hard) - again, my problem. He's also just about the most stubborn thing on the planet (just like his dad), so it's really hard to "win" with him.

So, we sat down and had a little chat about "the new sheriff in town" - me. I said listening isn't just hearing sound going into your ears. Listening means doing what you're told. Couple of examples. Now you tell me, what does listening mean? OK, so we got that far.

Then I told him that obedience is not something that he can decide if he wants to do. It is expected at all times and he will be punished immediately. If he didn't listen the first time, time out with no blankie or whatever for comfort. He could come out when the timer on the oven went off (which he could hear). I started with 5 minutes and if he came out before it was up, I started over. Each time he had to go into time out I added a minute. CRITICAL: I stayed really calm and told him I was sorry that he chose to put himself in time out by not listening (always the subtle reminder that it is his responsibility, not mine). I told him that he was in time out so not to talk to me because I wouldn't talk to him. Easiest if I could get far enough away that he wouldn't bother, but not always possible. Oh, time out has to be in a place that deprives him of as much stimulation as possible - like a corner of a room where there's nothing going on or the hallway - BORING. It was easier not to let myself get mad if I punished him as soon as he was naughty rather than after I got sick of it, too. He spent a lot of time in time out. He cried a lot, screamed and yelled at me, and just generally had tantrums. He also learned that he could get out of time out when the timer went off if he calmed down and got control of himself but he might sit there for 20-30 minutes (an eternity) if he couldn't get nice. It wasn't just obedience I was after. I needed him to learn to control his emotions.

I have resorted to spanking him a few times when he does certain things that are serious offenses that he knows are serious rule breakers such as grabbing a kitchen knife and running away with it (not even in anger, just goofing around). Serious rules are usually for his safety or simply crossing the intentionally "mean" line. But mostly I hate spanking him so I avoid it unless I have to. He hates time out so much that it's pretty effective (it will only work if your child hates it or it's not punishment) - my mom always sent me to my room for punishment and that was my idea of heaven).

Anyway, the things that changed were 1. my staying really calm and forcing his dad to calm down too and 2. actually remembering to give him time out the second he acted in an unacceptable fashion and then stick to my guns. I also had to work on thinking through what he was doing or asking for before I reacted and decide if it was one of those things that I would change my mind on so I didn't punish him for the stupid stuff. We still have issues, but he did catch on pretty quick that I am the law and he will have consequences for his actions. I even talk like that to him - he can understand a lot more than I would have thought. He still flares but a lot less and he totally gets that time outs and being happy are all his choice. I don't even time them any more, he just knows that there are conditions to coming out. He has to be civil (we talked about what that means), tell me why he was in there, and correct the situation (apologize to whoever, pick up his mess, whatever). So he always says he's ready to be civil now, can he come out - it's actually cute.

Sorry this was so long. I just know how hard that power struggle is and I finally found something that worked! Good luck.
K.

Read the book 1-2-3 Magic. It's the best way I have ever found to discipline toddlers.

Try love and logic, it will work wonders for your sanity( while it is not perfect it helps a ton!) They have seminars, books, etc. Good luck!

I whole heartedly agree with the other responses. No means NO. Don't ever go back and change your mind on it because it confuses the child and then they will never give up, they'll think they can just keep nagging you until you say yes.

I was taught that you say yes as much as possible and no with an explanation. Buy yourself a bit of time with, "Let me think about it." If he then goes into a fit, say something like, "If you do that, the answer will no."

I really recommend the book "How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk." It's in paperback and you could find it cheap at www.amazon.com or even at your library. It probably saved my kids' lives, and has prevented so many tantrums and shouting matches at my house. No mind games, no complicated system, just straight-up, effective communication so everyone feels validated and can get what they need without frustration and hostility.

It's OK to validate what he wants without saying yes to it: "Oooh, it IS fun to think about candy, isn't it? I'm sure we'll get to eat candy at grandma's house. Let's do a puzzle together now."
It's also important not to set up an adversarial relationship with your child. Yes, you're the mom and you have authority to run the show, but it is perfectly acceptable and appropriate to respect his perspective and show that you are doing so--after all, you expect him to be able to be respectful to others so you need to model that, even to him: "Hmmm, what do you think?" or "Wow, you sound frustrated!" or "I know you'd like to walk at the store, but I need to hurry so I need you to stay in the cart. Should we get apples or oranges?" There's no need to cast yourself in the role of inflexible bully--it's so rarely needed.
That book talks about addressing children with "I need you to. . ." I want you to. . ." "It's important that you. . . " and "I expect you to. . . " These phrases have rescued my family's communication.
I totally feel your pain as I am daily managing my short fuse with three sons. But I have noticed my children behave about as well as they are treated, and practicing the things we learned from that book has dramatically increased the respect and reduced the drama in our home. Best wishes!

Youv'e probably heard this, but it's so true! Pick you battles very carefully- but when you do, you must win. That's so true. Sometimes we need to step back for a moment before we answer our children's requests and really think about whether it really isn't a big deal. But seriously, when you do say 'no', do not back down. When he starts to see he can't make you cave, the power struggles will gradually diminish and eventually vanish. If his outbursts are really getting to you and making you angry, can you put him in another room until he's done? They are shorter lived without an audience, anyway! Good luck!

I get this with my seven year old and my four year old.
One question I asked them both "have you ever gotten your way with a fit?", of course the answer is no! :)
One thing is never cave. Explain why you are saying no, not just blanket no. A lot of people don't agree with that but I know a little logic helps my kids defuse when they hear no. Remember too to say yes enough when it is reasonable.
My daughter said to me the other day "you say no to everything!!" So the next time she asked me on something I would have said yes, I said "well since you truly believe I say no all the time, then I guess no is my answer"...she back tracked, thought about it. Then I gently reminded her on all the things I have said yes to.
Of course they want what they want when they want, however you cannot say yes to everything but keep your expecations of his reaction for a four year old that he is doing what most do.
Send him to his room, tell him "when you calm down you can come out, however I know you are angry but you do not get to pitch a fit".
I am still working on it. I tell my kids that the only outcome of a fit is more trouble. It is VERY slowly sinking in! :)
I do the "okay 10 minutes off of bedtime" and walk away. That usually shuts it down quickly and then when they are asking me something I know I am going to answer no on, I start off with the explanation why before my answer OR I just say "not right now"...sometimes that helps!
Good luck, normal phase! :)

What works with my 3 year old...
"I'm so sorry you are feeling frustrated/upset about....I understand you are having a hard time expressing yourself and I want to listen to you so I will let you go up to your room and get your cries out and then when you are ready come down and we will have a talk"
If at the store, the your room changes to the car and walk out, leave the basket even ask a clerk to hold the basket for you for a while if you have a lot in it and put them in the car seat buckle in for the time they need to cry
If in the car already just stop talking to them once you say it until they are done crying
when they stop or come out of the room
"I'm glad you got your cries out come give mommy a hug and lets talk about it"
"were you feeling frustrated because mommy said no when you wanted...?"
"yeah" or some other acknowledging response
"it's hard when we don't get what we want isn't it?"
"The reason mommy said no was because....."
"Can you apologize to mommy now for screaming?"
sometimes my 3 year old resists the apologizing part so I've added
"I deserve your respect and it isn't respectful to scream at someone so if you need some time to think about that I can set the timer for 3 minutes and let you think about it. I don't scream at you because I love and respect you, and I expect the same respect and treatment from you"
I don't baby talk my 3 year old, we never have so the terms are already familiar to her...recently we explained the difference between being mean and being firm. Mommy and daddy have to be firm sometimes but that doesn't mean they are being mean...it stopped her from saying "don't be mean mommy"
do I still get frustrated? yes. but the system works. It helps her to feel validated that her feelings are real, helps her to understand she needs to work through those feelings and treat others with respect and that we don't always get what we want. I've taken her out of church, from play groups in restraunts and stores to go sit in the car to get her cries out. Often now she will tell me "I just need to go get my cries out" and goes up to her room or buries her head in her arms in the car until she is ready to talk.
I do believe kids test boundaries but often this wig out/power struggle is really the kids trying to tell us I have these strong feelings and I don't know what they are or how to express them or how to process them, and if we can teach them to do that it really aliviates so much of the fighting and drama.
GL

My son just turned 5 and he is not real bad at this behavior. When he does start to go into a fit I tell him, "I will count to three and then you will be in serious trouble if you don't stop." This way I have time to situate myself and he knows what I expect. I never thought that counting would have such a big effect on him but he hates it. He starts yelling, "No, I will stop!" Don't go back on what you say because he wants to test you to an extreme. Just remember to give yourself time to rationalize and make the best decisions for both of you.

You're very right in not giving in when he has his fits. But I would suggest to create a habit of thinking before you say no. I caught my husband at this - he would say no before he even thought (I saw him do it). ANd then you can't go back without rewarding the fit. So pause, think about what he is asking, restate it if you need to, then make your decision. That way you're avoiding the fight before it even starts. (And when you do have to say no and stick to your guns it will mean more.)

Hi C.,
Well, I have a 6 yo, a 5 yo and an almost 2 yo. All boys.
Just for reference.

I've found it's best if you can try to say, "Yes", to nearly every request, but you can add a little to that. Like, "Yes, you can have dessert, after dinner." Or, " Yes, we can go to the park, this weekend." Or whatever. Then, they really don't have much to argue about, and if they get pouty about not doing it right then, then you can "take it away" because of their poor behavior.

I wouldn't get into A LOT of explaining either. He needs to just obey you, and you know, a lot of times if I'm unsure, I'll say, "Let me think about that." And that is a perfect out for a few minutes while I decide if I care or not.

Don't worry you are doing the right thing. He's only 4, and if he's throwing a fit because you say no that is unacceptable behavior. The fits are his way of controlling YOU, because wether you know it or not, he can probably tell that it bothers you. My advice would be to start walking into another room or asking him to go to another room until he can control himself, then the ball is in his court, and he no longer feels like his fits affect you. About the anger, anger is a choice, if it is something that he shouldn't be that upset about, why are you getting angry about it too? As parents and caregivers we are supposed to portray the actions and behaviors we wish to see in children.

The funny thing about your post is that you are doing everything right!! It's just that you feel bad! I read a few others that talked about saying yes. I made that switch and it did help a little. Just getting into the habit is hard. So for instance, if he asks for a cookie, instead of saying "no cookies", you say "yes you may have a cookie, but after lunch" (then quickly distract if possible) "yes you may have a cookie, but after lunch-what kind of cookies do we have? I'll bet that tastes yummy...." Just keeps you mindful of what you're saying.

The other suggestion I have is making sure to find times when you do like his behavior and really praising that. Positive reinforcement is such a great tool. Especially if you can find a time when he doesn't throw a fit or he uses words nicely, really reinforce that.

Good luck, though again, you weren't doing anything wrong!!

I have the same problem with my 3 year old. He has always been my strongest willed child but the last 6 months have been his strongest yet - and HE IS LOUD! needless to say, I feel your pain. Here is what I do and it sure seems to be working and also worked with my oldest son when he had his little bout at 4.

So when he starts acting like a crazy boy because he doesn't get what he wants, I immediately send him to the couch in the living room (sometimes I even have to pick him up and put him there). This is a place removed from the rest of the family and he is not allowed to have anything with him, no toys, not blanket, nothing. Sometimes he screams or kicks or fits for a LONG time and it is painful to endure, however I do not give in, I do not go check on him, and I certainly do not give him what he wants. Eventually, he calms down and comes back to me and is fine. From that point he may ask again for whatever it is he wanted but his response is much better.

Keep in mind, there are times when he will throw a fit about the same thing again, and I do the same thing. He hates to be removed from the family and I have found this to work every time. It just seems that when I do an "ignore", it seems to intensify the problem, I have found that the bad behavior must be addressed and have concequences. At 4 you probably don't need to over explain what is going on, maybe just comments like "next time you won't have to go to the couch if you behave properly", kids totally make the connection if you are consistent, consistent, consistent.

Good luck, it is seriously hard to endure I know, but it is short-lived, they grow out of this stage.

You are absolutely right to not want to reward bad behavior, and that's exactly what fits are. Right now, your son is experimenting with different ways of trying to get what he wants, and it's easy for kids to succumb to the desire to throw fits when they're frustrated and don't get what they want. DO NOT GIVE IN TO THEM. What's more, they should be punishable actions. It is absolutely unacceptable for a kid to behave that way, even if they still don't get their way. If you allow it at home, you are teaching him that if he doesn't get his way, he can still behave in a disrespectful and disruptive manner, thereby punishing you for not giving him what he wants. He needs to learn that no means no, period. If you are out around town, shopping, running errands, or in a restaurant, would you allow that behavior to occur? Even if you choose to "ignore" it, it's not right to make others have to "ignore" it as well. Find a punishment (time-outs, losing a toy, losing a fun activity, quiet time in bed, naptime, whatever he HATES) and start administering it. As soon as you see him start winding himself up, let him know calmly that if he starts throwing a fit, he will be in trouble. If he continues, a punishment should immediately follow, and DO NOT let him out of it. It is equally important to be willing to punish in public, whether it means that at the store, he must ride in the cart, lose a toy, not go to a playdate, etc. A lot of people are embarrassed in public to deal with their kids, but they shouldn't be. I must add that I was never afraid to leave a store with my kids if necessary, which most kids never believe will happen. They don't get to control the situation, YOU do.

You also mentioned that you might have changed your mind if he had gone about asking in a different way....be careful of this. If he asks you for something that you might actually say yes to, then consider the question before you answer. Either an answer is yes or it is no. By allowing them to change your mind, no matter how they "ask" you are setting yourself up for a lot of frustration in the future, because EVERY decision will be second-guessed. My kids know that no means no, and once I have said yes, if they continue to bug me about it, will change to a no.

I hope that I don't sound abrupt. I just know how important it is to establish control from the earliest possible point, and it makes me crazy to watch other parents who refuse to actually be parents. Your kids might get mad at you from time to time, but if you teach them how to be a responsible person, they will thank you for it when they are older! Best of luck!!

C.,

It sounds like you are too quick to answer the question.
"Often Times I realize that what he was asking for was not that big of deal". 1. I would suggest that you take more time to decide your answer before saying anything. 2. If the answer is still no, let your son know that your answer is final. 3. Be more open to saying "Yes". I am guessing that is an answer your son hears rarely. If this is the truth, put yourself in his shoes. How frustrated would you be if everything that you asked for was denied?

With my whole heart, C.

I was struck by your comment about "I realized that what he asked for wasn't that big a deal." Is your autonmatic response usually "No"? Maybe you should take a minute to think about whatever he is aksing and say yes more frequently. Best of luck, I know it's tough. I have a 27 month old and I'm ready to rip my hair out.

I read something once that has stuck with me. I haven't done very well with it, but I think it's a good idea to try. Instead of saying no, say yes instead, with a qualifier. When he aks a question say, "Yes, when you....", or "Yes, at this time." Just make sure you follow through.