Public displays of religious ideas, and sports?
I for one can hardly stand sports. I get so tired of hearing people talk about it and seeing all the signs everywhere. In school I hated having pep rallies and being forced to go. I hated the fact that learning an instrument meant that I had to play in the marching band. In our school you could not do one without the other.
People pay thousands of dollars to buy season tickets and whole cities collect taxes to help pay for stadiums. Shows are pre-empted on tv to make room for the games. Big lay-outs are spread through the newpapers and across the newspaper stands to talk about sports. I dare say that sports in this country gets far MORE attention than God does or Allah or Budda or any other religious icon.
If we want public school to become a place where religious factions don't meet, then I don't think girlscouts or boy scouts or sports should go on there either. Let's just take out all entertainment and sports and get back to the teaching of the reading, writing, and math. But what of history? Has it occurred to any of you why schools are spending less and less on history? Do you even know how ignorant our kids today are of history? It's not just that they are trying to change the textbooks to re-write history. There are too many people in the world holding onto older textbooks and correcting the few that bother to care about history.
Our leaders are taking funding away from history because history students know that this country was founded on Christianity. It wasn't just religious freedom. Our forefathers GAVE religious freedom for other religions to people begrudgingly and ONLY over time and only because of the religious tyranny they were escaping. Any real student of religion knows that our early pioneering mothers were placed in stocks for holding Bible studies. The very men that were supposedly running from people that dictated to them how they could worship and what they could believe, turned around and told their woman and their slaves what they can believe. It was only after a few hundred years of Christianity reigning supreme that they started to realize that they had to move over and give freedom to other religious peoples if they were to keep the freedoms they wanted for themselves.
So... We are afraid to teach real history because people might get back to the basics and realize what this country once stood for... We don't want religious meetings in school... But we still like sports. And just how and when did sports become such a HUGE deal anyway? Is it quite possible that the rising place in society sports has played in the last 40-50 years is because people are leaving religion in the dust and people just have to follow SOMETHING?
Isn't education supposed to be well rounded? Don't we want to actually practice what we preach? We tell our kids they can grow up to be anything they want. But then we turn around and try and SQUASH any personal expression of religion from them!
My how we are a huge bunch of hypocrites. If we are going to teach children that all men are created equal and that people can have families of all shapes and sizes, two moms or two dads, then we may as well open the doors for them to explore all religions too. I'd rather have my kids exposed to religions that I don't know about than to have them being told that we don't need to believe in anything.
So what is the difference between gathering a whole school for this sport and that sport and choir and band etc., and giving them the experience and choice of following their religion?
I don't like sports. But I put up with it in every single way it's thrown in my face all the time. I smile and cheer for my friends and daycare parents when they are excited and smile and be quiet when they are down about the way a game turned out. I think it's time that we start being real and fair with each other in our public schools. We ALL pay for them even though some of us don't use them.
It's awesome that some schools are doing a great job at teaching ABOUT religion. But the notion that they should not support the students in their free practice OF religion is abhorent. What a way to say to a kid, believe what you want. BUT, don't expect to be given the freedom to express it between the hours of 9am and 3pm everyday. The last post was not about the teachers leading Muslim prayers. It was about teachers not leaving the students alone and I agree with people that said they needed more supervisors before some people raised a stink. It's one thing to study about something. It doesn't become real until it's practiced. Teachers should have the right to participate in the religions experiences of their choice in school. I believe there would be a lot less violence in school if we allowed our students more freedoms to give of their energies to the religion of their choice during the day.
Anyone believing that our forefathers were not CHRISTIAN and did not FORCE that way of life on their new communities, is woefully BRAINWASHED by those that have worked very hard to change our American history. Of course, there were different communities that practiced different branches of Christianity. But freedom of religion did NOT happen just off the Mayflower.
Molly, I agree with you. I stand by my personal opinion that anyone trying to stop children from practicing their religion is a souless pig. :)
I really enjoyed what the last person said about the ancient romans until they became personal and ugly towards me at the end. But oh well. Everyone deserves their opinion. I love all things religion and education and I hold the view that religion is very important for the comminity and that THIS community that we all hold dear...those of us in the USA... are by and large a CHRISTIAN community and anyone else of another religion needs to respect us and our way of life as we do theirs. That includes people that claim to have no faith. People that claim to have no faith do have faith, only in themselves.
In response to SweetChaosWith3's response- not everyone can afford to send their child to a private, religious school. IMHO, I think vouchers would solve that problem so that parents of all income level have the ability to choose what kind of education they want for their child. If you haven't seen the movie Waiting for Superman, I highly recommend it- it's definately eye-opening. (I watched it in parts on Youtube).
When did sports become a big deal? How about Ancient Greece? Now there's some history for you! The populace, even then, was divided into the physical and the academic. The warriors and the intelligencia. Outside of war, the physical beings needed something to do and the thinkers wanted entertainment. Some of these thinkers thought this could even provide a socializing opportunity for city-states (some of whom may have recently been seen at the other end of a battlefield) and the First Olympics was born! Sports have value for those they are a good fit with. For those that don't have a calling for the physical end of things, there are the arts. The arts engage different parts of the brain than traditional academic subjects and provide stimulation, inspiration, and entertainment. Much like sports, but yet very different.
Religion is one of those facets of culture that is difficult to disengage from the other facets. It informs and is informed by innumerable factors. Public displays of religion are generally protected, but like many rights, the law suspend's a minor's full entitlement to exercise these right in favor of things such as creating a safe learning environment. Specific instance of objection should (and to my knowledge are) handled on an individual basis. For instance, should a minor be allowed to carry wine for the occasional communion? Extreme example, I know, but done for a point.
Foucault wrote that the contemporary notions we have of public versus private are a relatively new concept. In the early 17th Century, they didn't differentiate like we do. That is the crux of the issue with religion. Some feel it is a private matter and need not be brought into the light of day. Some feel their existance as part of a community of faith supercedes all "worldly concerns".... And a million degrees of variance between the two. Perhaps taking a break from your diatribes and furthering your own studies would help you practice that contemporary concept of Tolerance.
ETA... Ancient Greece predates Roman! Not the same thing at all. Since it seemed a large part of your rant implied you had a better-than-average understanding of history, you may want to try to avoid such simple errors if you want to leave your argument any credibility. You seem to be a very religious person and very supportive of people being able to practice their religion freely. That is admirable. However you do not seem very tolerant of different opinions, and that is sad. You call people soulless pigs for having differing opinions than you. That divisiveness can be downright dangerous. Yes, you are entitled to an opinion. I am entitled to suggest your opinion may be less critical were you better educated in matters like history and philosophy. If that's ugly, I don't want to be beautiful. :-) Peace!
Do you have an actual argument in this rant? I am truly curious.
As mentioned many times in other threads, separation of Church and State protects the rights of students to practice or not practice religion in public schools. This means that the school can't lead prayer or teach one religion as the "right" religion. But it does mean that individual students, of their own volition, can say grace before a meal or pray before a game.
My children go to public school and they DO learn about religion in history class, where it belongs. My 8th graders are learning about the major world religions this year in the context of a World Cultures curriculum and I think it's wonderful. They have discussed the common roots of Judaism, Islam and Christianity as well as major Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Taoism. They have done quite a bit of exploring stereotypes and bigotry, especially of Muslims in America in a post-911 world. I do expect my children to learn *about* religions in public school. To ignore religious history is ignorant. That said, I don't expect their public schools to take on the role of *supporting* their religion - that's what their religious education classes and weekly Mass are for (we're Catholic).
So...are you saying that you agree with how my public school handles religion? I truly can't tell from your writing what you are arguing for or against (other than the fact that you seem to resent sports...not really seeing the parallel between that and religion).
@SweetChaosWith3 - I can assure you that your children, in Catholic school, will spend a GREAT deal of time learning about other religions. Religion and history (and art, and science, and literature) are so intertwined that no person can call himself or herself educated without understanding the major belief systems of the world and how they have influenced, well, everything. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and we spent time every year learning about other religions and our entire Religion class curriculum for one year of high school was learning, in-depth, everything except Catholicism. Learning about religions in the context of everything else covered in school is absolutely an essential part of any education, whether the school is public or private.
I think that perhaps you need to check your facts in regard to our forefathers and Christianity. You are woefully misinformed.
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
-Treaty of Tripoli 1796
Again, start a blog. Not the forum.
I'm not really sure what the point of your post is, but my parish priest feels that sports is replacing religion in today's families. He encourages our school families to limit the amount of sports our kids play and spend more time together eating dinner as a family. Even though as you said, I'm "soulless" I tend to agree with him. My kids go to a Catholic school where prayer is included in the daily routine and our religion is part of the ciricuulum I pay for this privilege. As you know from my previous post, my nephew attends a public school where public displays of religion (ANY religion) were not allowed until recently when they started letting a small group of Muslim children use a classroom and a lunch supervisor for their noon prayers. If you want kids to learn about religion, send them to a religious school. It should be pretty cut and dry. No religion in public schools. Not for Christians, Jews, Muslims. Nobody. Period.
ADDED: Like I said in my SWH in response to your NASTY comment, if believing that kids should pray on their own during recess and not in a special room with a supervisor makes me a soulless pig, then SOOIE!!!!! Oink Oink! I guess my sister-in-law and the 50 + and counting other outrages parents are soulless pigs too! Nobody is telling them they can't pray. Did you read every part of my post of just jump to your own high and mighty conclusions???? They're not asking the school to tell them to stop praying, they're asking for them to stop providing special supervision for it. GET IT???
Wow! I don't even know where to begin with this. I suppose I will start with sports. First, any form of athletics is HEALTHY. Americans are obese and I fully support our kids getting exercise. Anything after school is completely optional so if you have no interest, no need to participate. Second, a little competition is great for the soul. What's wrong with striving to be better, stronger, more agile? Sportsmanship is a wonderful thing to teach children. They need to learn how to be gracious winners or even more important, gracious losers. You can't win all of the time and playing a sport sure teaches that life lesson. Sports also teach kids how to get along as a team, which will help in a future career where you have to work with others. Colleges place the importance on extracurricular activities because they want a well rounded student, knowing that they are far more likely to succeed. As far as pep rallies go, what is wrong with having a little pride in your school?
I happen to like sports as you can probably tell. I am not fanatic about it and rarely discuss it. Obviously there is something wrong when people obsess over it, but one could argue the same about religion as well. In fact, my atheist husband would argue that religion is the root of all evil. He is a classical studies major, meaning he has studied Greeks, Romans and history in general. He has traveled to over 30 countries and has lived in 4 different ones including Saudi Arabia. Too many wars throughout history are over religion. So much blood is shed because people are controlling and close-minded.
My atheist husband is not a soulless being. He is one of the kindest people I know. He is one who will save any stray dog and go to great lengths to find their owner. He is a vegetarian for animal rights reasons. He donates blood regularly. He also donates money to those in need whether it is for children or cancer. He is good human being because he wants to be, not because he wants to go to Heaven. With that said, I am not an atheist, but I am not a religious fanatic either. I am a deeply spiritual person that believes in prayer and the power of thought. If a school dared to tell my children how/when/what/where to pray I would be livid. I would pull my kids so fast from that school. I want to be the one to educate my children about prayer, it should NEVER come from the school. My husband and I have had many conversations about how to raise our kids regarding religion. We are completely on the same page and no one has the right to invade on something so private and personal.
If you are suggesting that the schools provide non-biased information about all religions, well most of them do that. I learned about many different religions, cultures and governments in history class. I am all for my children understanding that there are many religions out there and having them research what they are all about. Learning and praying are two very different concepts.
There is good reason church and state are separate. Shall we change this country to be run as a dictatorship? I thought Christians were not supposed to be judgemental? Aren't they supposed to be tolerant and accepting? That means allowing others to enjoy sports, even if you don't. That also means allowing those the freedom to practice religion the way they want, on their own time. Isn't going to church or having bible study enough for you? Why are you so obsessed that you need it to be a part of school too?
As far as your comment: "I'd rather have my kids exposed to religions that I don't know about than to have them being told that we don't need to believe in anything." I can not even fathom a school actually telling children we don't need to believe in anything. I'm pretty sure that has lawsuit written all over it.
We all have our opinions, it sure makes this world unique. I just don't think you need to force your views on others. My whole family chooses to be vegetarians. I would never dream of campaigning for schools to remove meat from the menu, nor would I ever tell you that you should embrace that lifestyle too. I feel VERY strongly about my vegetarian view, but I do completely accept that you might love meat and I am 100% ok with that. So, you can LOVE your religion with all of your heart, but please leave others alone. To each his own. Live and let live.
Well, I do enjoy sports. Not to the extent that many others do, but I think they're fun. I did go to Catholic schools. We had sports, but it was pretty easy to not notice. Not pep rallies at my schools. The college I went to had a football team, and I had so much fun going to games. I work at a college that doesn't have a football team. Rats! Soccer and basketball just don't do it for me, no offense.
Like I said, I went to Catholic schools. I also worked for the Catholic Church for 9 years. It's a pretty big part of my life. My kids will not be going to Catholic schools ... at least not for grade school. High school is a possibility, but we have plenty of time to discuss that. I'm a little sad, because I always thought I would send my kids to Catholic schools, but it's just not going to work out.
But I'm not at all concerned about my kids and religion. We go to church each week. We know our faith pretty well and do our best to answer questions and encourage they to ask and seek and learn and grow. We also try to learn about other faiths. I used to work in college campus ministry, so I have some experience with ecumenical and interfaith discussions. We want to instill i our kids a strong desire to learn and grow in the Catholic faith but also to learn about and appreciate many other faiths. I believe very deeply that each religion and religious tradition has much to offer and I hesitate to call any of them the "true" religion. I don't think any one faith has the complete truth, and I do believe the most important thing a religion can offer is a closer relationship with God and a deeper desire to love and serve humanity.
I understand many of your concerns, as it seems that many people take freedom of religion to mean that public schools should be absent or religion. It's incredibly sad, because it really does mean that they are not to endorse a particular religion, try to force students to embrace a certain religion or favor one over others in anyway. Public schools should not be void of religion.
But honestly, why does it upset people so much? I keep hearing people say that God is missing from the classrooms or the court houses (because the Ten Commandments can't be displayed). No one is taking God out of anything. No one is preventing me from teaching my children about God. We all just need to live our faith to the best of our ability and worry a little bit less about prayer in schools.
"Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words." Live your faith. That's what people really see anyway. And let them enjoy their sports. Yes, some of them are out of control, but most of them are just having fun!
Haven't heard of Tim Tebow?
I have not read any responses.
I teach English (AP and on-level classes) in a public high school in Texas. It is an extremely diverse school. In my classes we study excerpts from the King James Bible, Paradise Lost, and Dante's Inferno. All of those require discussions about religion. By the time we study these works, my students are very comfortable with me, and with each other. We analyze the works as literature, but end up discussing religion in general. Students share their own beliefs, and they are quite varied. By this point in the year they all know I am Catholic.
On our campus we have many religious groups/clubs. We have a Christian group that gathers to pray together each morning (students and teachers). They also meet during the week after school sometimes. We also have a Muslim group that meets in the classroom next to mine every Tuesday. There is a group of Mormon students that meets at lunch. We also have a very large Gay/Lesbian group. I know it's not a religion, but this particular group of kids happens to be a particularly religious group of kids. They begin their meetings with a prayer.
The nicest part of having all of these groups of kids is that they all get along, and they are learning to respect each others' beliefs.
well, most of the kids in our circle of friends/family do fully participate in their chosen religions. My 15yo attends church, has served as altar boy, & is on the H.S. Track/Field team. & in the Band. We have time for faith in our lives, regardless of the schedule. AND both of my sons enjoy learning History & how religion/faith has played a role thru the years. Both are big History buffs!
my DH has a 1st cousin who played pro baseball...won the World Series & all. He & his family are devout in their faith, pillars of their religious community, & are dedicated to sharing His Word. All of their children were active in sports thru the years.
I think, perhaps, since you personally don't like sports....you have a negative opinion of its effect on society. Sports, in itself, is not an evil. What I do consider to be at issue... are the people in our society who choose to put pastimes & hobbies before that of faith....whether it be sports, gaming, gambling, etc. But, then again, that is their choice & not my business. :)
Oh, & our public school does have a faith-based group which meets & holds prayer time before school. We also have a teen outreach program which opens with a prayer. AND when our district was hit by tragedy, we received a grant for counseling. The team who runs the counseling is religious-based, & has recently opened a coffeehouse next to the H.S - as a safe retreat for all children. Faith is well & alive in our little town. :)
Your post is so full of misleading information, partial truths and bias, I don't even know where to start...so I won't bother refuting your "facts".
However, I don't think sports belong in schools. Local private organizations should sponsor sport teams and take the cost out of the public education budget. As well, I also don't think religious organizations should be allowed to rent public school space for their meetings, there is plenty of privately owned space available for that. I don't fake that I approve of either, my friends who watch sports don't talk to me about it because I think they are as stupid as most organized religions. A lack of religion does not equal immorality, but people sure do "worship" sports figures in a way that is bothersome to me.
eta: By "take the cost out of the public education budget," I didn't mean to take *money* out of the education budget for sports. I meant that private entities should sponsor them, thereby relieving the school districts of the cost of them.
The world is broken. Our Leaders are all crooks. There is so much class warfare pushed on us by our Leaders. Constant evil shows it's ugly face on Religion. Injustice is part of humanity. All of this negativity is accepted as part of our society.
I find it's best to accept the unaccepted and the ignorant, isn't that what God does? but you don't have to like it.
BTW I don't like sports but I love to hear how Tim Tebow is upsetting soooo many people & the lash out on him is despicable.
Even Steve Jobs prayed and acknowledged God just before dying and he was an atheist, isn't that wonderful? There are sooo many people that think they are set in their ways, but there is always that little bit of hope for change.
Your body is a temple and you don't have to have a special time or place or be alone to pray...you can do it anytime, anywhere.
Well sports are basically pointless displays of strength using inflated balls mostly. Something to occupy the mind brainlessly and an excuse to gamble.
Religion is an attempt to decipher the meaning of our existence as we know it. Religious displays are just attempts to be proud if that and want to share it( even though sometimes its pretty annoying)
Pretty different creatures
( I haven't read any responses.. )
I went to a public school k-12 grades. We were a small town ( actually 4 towns and all the farm kids in between) school. They never told us that we can't talk about God or anything but they didn't organize anything for Him either.
In 9th grade ( I think it was) we were learning about how the Earth was created. He gave the scientific teaching about it for a week. Then the second week, he stepped back and rang in once in a while but let us students "teach" our perspective on how God created Earth. Then the third week with his minimal chiming in he let us debate on how one was more likely than the other and things like that. When it came to the test he let us answer how the Earth was made and how on what we felt was the correct way and no answer was wrong no matter what "way" we put down.
Now my kids to go a smaller public school than I went to. In the beginning of the school year each year we fill out a poll. On that poll they ask us parents what we want as far as how much God is allowed in the school and it is clear that the over whelming vote will be respected. God has never been asked to take a back seat thankfully. Before every home game of every sport a student says a small prayer for all of the students playing. We have Christmas concerts every year... yes Christmas concert, not a winter concert. Every grade sings one song that has a Christan meaning at thier concert. The kids are able to learn about the Christan concept of how Earth was created ( they don't go real deep on it but they still teach it). Before each lunch period there is a 2 minute pure silent time before eating. They are allowed to use those 2 minutes how ever the student chooses... they can pray before eating or not, nobody is judged.
I truly believe if we could start being religion back into this country then alot of people will start to get some of the morals back and alot less crimes and things would happen.
We as Christians ( no matter what religion) need to start putting our feet down and together start standing up and saying we will not let this happen anymore. Why should people who don't believe get to squash our beliefs. Where is that happy medium to please everyone? I don't have the answer to that, but there needs to be one. It should not be one way or another just because its "easier". Well easier isn't always the best way, we as parents know that and deal with that every day in raising our children.
Don't know if I answered your question or not lol but that is how I feel on it.
