Suggestions/ideas for My Dear Son Who Has a Killer Stubborn Streak:)

So you put him in time out and he throws a fit and you feel bad? Really? Make him sit there until he settles down and then start the timer. Bring him back as many times as you need to. Do not engage him. Just haul his sorry butt back and sit him down. It will get worse before it gets better. Remember, every time you bring him back, the timer starts over.
I'd start this afternoon. Sit him down. Go over the rules. No talking back. No hitting. Whatever... Tell him the consequences of not following the rules - time out for 4 minutes. Explain time out. You will sit quietly for 4 minutes and think about what you did and what you can do instead. If you don't sit quietly, the timer will start over. If you get up, the timer will start over. Then ask him if he understands. Then ask him what happens if you hit? How does time out work. Make sure he understands.
Remind him as you go through the day.
Get ready... He will test you.

My son is almost four (next month) and has a killer stubborn streak, too. When put in time out, he gets back up. He has a bad habit of yelling at me, too. I, too, have tried all the things you mentioned. What I found that has been working (in the past week!) was using a "mark system". I told him when he doesn't listen, I have to clean up after him (after asking him 1x), he yells at me, fights with his sister, etc, he gets a mark. IF he gets three marks - he goes to time out. If he is good after the mark for awhile, I will take the mark away. If we are doing something special (ice cream, etc) I'll use that as leverage instead of a time out (3 marks = no fireworks). We started this on the 4th of July and for some reason it works? When I threaten a mark, he'll usually do what I ask. Yesterday I gave he and his sister a mark (don't usually have to with her) because I came outside and they were both standing on top of my parents hottub cover. They knew that was a bad choice, so I gave them each a mark (In my head if I don't have paper nearby) and then made them sit on the side of the pool for three minutes while I got in and swam. My mom even used it on both kids when they were with her for the day and it worked - they played together beautifully after getting one mark! I usually have a small piece of paper on the fridge and each night, I show him I am erasing all the marks so he can start over. I'll maek sure to make comments about good behavior, being nice and polite, etc even if he doesn't have any marks. So far, this is really helping his stubborn-ness, yelling, etc!!!! I explain to him that it's similar to the Red, Yellow, Green system he has at preschool and he seems to respond very well to that.

Well, the fact that he cries when he's in the "naughty spot" might mean the strategy is working. That's how kids respond to consequences that work -- they don't like them.

In other words, you can't expect a stubborn 4-year-old to instantly act cheerful and angelic when you apply a consequence. He's going to rage against the machine for quite some time before he gets with the program.

All that said, with my own son, I had better luck putting his toys in time out than with putting HIM In time out. I put his Thomas trains on top of the fridge so he could see them but not reach them. As soon as he got out of line, he lost a train. As soon as he got his act together, he got a train back. That way, he felt like he was in control of the situation, but he controlled things by being a good kid.

Oh, and you haven't necessarily made major parenting mistakes. The measure of a good parent isn't whether a child has angelic behavior all the time; the measure of a good parent is how she responds when things DON'T go swimmingly.

Some kids don't care much about charts and rewards.

But, can you give an example of his misbehavior, for which you are putting him on the naughty spot? It's possible you are expecting too much of a 4 year old.

Plus, I don't think it matters if he cries while in the naughty spot. The point is for him to stay there, and for you to ignore him during that time. If he hits and kicks you while you are putting him there, tell him that will add X more minutes to his time.

I have two very strong-willed daughters, so I understand where you're coming from. (And I think being strong-willed is a good thing, but it's difficult to manage sometimes in a preschooler!)

What worked for me was to remove the child from my immediate vicinity. In general, I view a time out not as a punishment, but as an opportunity for the child to pull herself together. Children don't WANT to be naughty, but at times they can't help it. At this age, they don't think very far ahead in terms of consequences.

So, when it became clear that the child was on the path to a meltdown, I'd take the child by the hand (or if they went all spaghetti-legs on me, I'd carry/drag them, calmly) and we would go to the child's room. Now, I should say that we had a playroom, so my kids' bedrooms were just for sleeping. Nothing too exciting in there, and a safe place. I'd tell them, "I see you're upset. When you're feeling better, you can come out." And then shut the door. The child was free to scream, cry, gnash her teeth... whatever. Not within my earshot, so I don't care what happens in there. If the child came out of the bedroom before calming down, I'd take her by the hand and lead her back in there, and repeat what I had said.

And then, when she came out, perhaps still sniffling, I'd give her a hug and say, "Feeling better?" and she'd say, "Yep! Let's play Barbies!" and we would move on with our day. Also, when the child did something really good, like cleaning up her toys without being asked, or sharing a favorite toy with her sibling, I'd make a point of saying, "Wow, I love how you cleaned up your toys! Look how nice the playroom looks now!" - so she could feel pride in this small accomplishment, and hopefully want to repeat it again.

My girls are now 8 and 11 and are well-behaved and easy to manage (for me, and for their teachers, babysitters, etc). I think this is because they have learned that when they are feeling cranky, they need to remove themselves from the presence of other people for a while until they're in control of themselves. This is a strategy that will serve them well throughout their lives, I think.

So... that's what worked for me. I just didn't see it as a punishment, but as a chance for the child to regain control of herself.

Check out love and logic. loveandlogic.com. Giving kids choices that get you what YOU want, but that give them some feeling of control can do wonders. My son likes to know "why" about things. I didn't consider this disrespect, I considered it teaching. He's becoming his own little person and it's very hard when you have NO control over the world.

I have a super stubborn 4 year old too. You are lucky as yours cries in time-out which means it is working. My son does not cry in time out he just stands there and as soon as I look away he runs. Every time he has one he does this and I have to calmly walk him back to time out over and over. He never ever learns from this, he keeps testing and testing. He does this with everything else to. I try and use the system where you have to do x to get y and he could care less and does z. When he does not get y he gets angry and calls everyone stupid and butts - where he gets in trouble again. He is a handful and he is my 3rd child so I have tried and learned from all the techniques from the last two and he still defies all.

Oh and the reason my son would have a time out is for things like hitting his sister in the head with an xbox paddle because she accidentally ruined his pool in minecraft. Not something like not picking up his toys.

Now my first son was very upset if I took one of his Thomas the Trains and put that into timeout instead of him. He was much easier to give a consequence to.

My daughter you just have to get disapointed with her and she is upset.

Each kid is different.

3 and 4 are very difficult ages. So far my son who just turned 4 is the hardest he's been his whole life.

It's exhausting - I know!!! You will survive this. I have done it twice and now I am doing it with 1 and I also have two older kids with special needs. One with depression and ADD and the other with a serious anxiety disorder.

No need to beat yourself up but I know the feeling. Not a day goes by that I am not trying to blame myself for all of my kids challenges. Does not help that my husband blames me too - says I am to permissive.

I never used time outs, or a naughty spot, but there were consequences to behaviors.
Usually, do X before you get Y.
You can watch TV after you have brushed your teeth and put your shoes on.
I will give you breakfast once you're sitting nicely at the table.
We will get an ice cream if you listen well and don't whine while we're at the store.
Give him the power to behave well, rewards almost always work better than punishment.
And if you still need to punish him so be it. Time outs aren't supposed to be fun, being upset is the whole point, isn't it? Isn't he supposed to learn he doesn't LIKE time out and therefore he should think first next time? Let him cry and talk about his actions and consequences later, after he's calmed down.

I think McMama has a great idea! Certain personality types figure that if they're in trouble, then there's no reason to do anything but get dramatic about it. Giving marks means they have a chance to correct it, which is good!

My SD used to just say "No!" but not in a mean or yelling way, just a matter of fact way.

I have found with her that you need to do all of the chores and stuff before any kind of fun time is had. As soon as she starts having fun or gets absorbed in something, that's when she doesn't want to stop and she gets upset if you ask her to stop or do something else. With careful planning on my part, I have been able to get her to do so much more by catching her as soon as she wakes up for chores, and then later she can have rewards and playtime.

A timer helped in the past. I'd give her a 5 minute warning with a timer on when she needed to stop playing. She did get sneaky and add minutes to the timer, so I had to put the timer up high. That did seem to help a lot!

As for behavior, I would physically have to place her in time out. If she got hysterical about it, I would calmly say "when you've collected yourself and can stop crying and yelling, then you can come out and we can talk. You'd be amazed at how fast she could "turn off" the waterworks! Instead of making time out for a specific amount of time, she would sit there until she collected herself and could talk about what happened. That way how long she sat there was up to her. The point of time-out isn't to punish the child by making them sit there, it's to remove them from the situation so they can collect themselves and think about it. If that can happen in less than a minute, then that's fine!

Good luck mama!

We bought the 123 Magic videos and are using the technique. It works well with our stubborn 2.5 year old.

If he hasn't been using the naughty spot well, maybe you can get an older kid, or another adult to demonstrate how it works by acting it out for him. If not, use a doll, or a figurine. Do this when your kid is in a good mood, and explain why you are doing the demonstration.

Good luck to you and yours,
F. B.

No one on planet earth is as stubborn and strong willed as my ten yr old son. Find the "thing" that works (or affects him the most) for him. If its time out, or toys in time out, what-have-you.....then use it, and use it wisely and CoNSISTENTLY. You will see dramatic change as Soon as he knows you are sticking to your guns. I was never consistent enough, and I always negotiated. ( I was exhausted by him!) so here we are at ten, and I'm finally learning the hard way. But he's turning into a great kid, who's a leader and is using that strong will to his advantage. Now. Hang in there.
Oh, and the book 1,2,3 magic is awesome! I still count to my ten year old!

I would definitely look into positive parenting. Laura Markham (ahaparenting.com) is a fantastic site.