Rebellious 4 Yr. Old

Kevin Lehman's book "Have a New Kid By Friday" is AWESOME for situations like this. Check it out! In summary:

Say what you mean. Mean what you say.

Say it ONCE, follow through on consequences. No additional warnings.

Be consistent.

There is so much good stuff in there - I'm not doing it justice. See if your library has it. Good luck!

I try to use prevention and natural consequences rather than time out or other punishment. I also do not use stickers or charts or whatever. Firm boundaries and consistency are really important. Time out definitely sounds like it's not the thing for him.

I do not accept that sort of disrespect. If DD talks back or whatever, I remind her (calmly) that we don't speak like that and don't engage the discussion. If it continues, she'd need to leave until she could be kind. If toys were thrown, they'd be put away and she wouldn't have access to them at all until she could use them correctly. If this is an ongoing problem, I think I would put all the toys away and give them to him one at a time when he wanted to play, but he wouldn't have access to them. Spitting at me, wow, if that ever happened, she'd need to be removed. DD did go through a very short hitting (me) phase earlier this year (she's 4) and I calmly told her we don't hit, it hurts, and then she needed to go upstairs until she could be gentle. I had to do this a couple times, but she got the message and it stopped. I don't do time out, there wasn't some arbitrary time she needed to go to her room or whatever, but I made it clear that she could not be with people if she wasn't gentle and as soon as she could be gentle she could come back.

As for the prevention I think it is still a value at this age. I think many kids can keep it together at school but at home they just lose it after spending all day keeping it in check. So, I'd probably make sure he had a healthy snack as soon as he got home (or in the car on the way home), make sure the house was calm and he got MY attention when he first came home, rather than rushing around, making dinner or whatever. He may need some down time and connection time with you after being away all day. Or if they don't get a lot of motor breaks/recess at school, maybe he needs to run around the yard as soon as he gets home. Try to keep a flow to the daily activity that he can expect every day.

I don't go for rewarding good behavior. I think it can create a pay out system and lead them to always expect payment for what they should already be doing. I did briefly offer a sort of reward, if you cooperate we will do X, I did it one day to get her to cooperate with an appointment, but she quickly assumed that good behavior = reward. I immediately stopped that. No, you cooperate bc that is your responsibility, not for a reward. The problem is that if they see it as payment so if I am good I get X, but today I just feel like being bad, I don't feel the need for X. They don't get any intrinsic value from being good. It can also work the same way with punishment. Punishment can be the pay for the bad behavior, and maybe they don't mind the punishment. Making bigger and worse punishments don't stop that dynamic.

It sounds like he really is asking for attention. Negative attention is better than no attention. That's where being very calm and matter of fact in your reactions comes in. If you freak out and engage when he is talking back and spitting, well he's got your attention, he is in control. If you remain calm, enforce the boundary and are consistent about it, it loses the benefit he is getting from it. So if you can meet his needs for attention he may be less likely to act out in these ways.

You also may want to look at what he is eating. Trying to break toys sounds a bit extreme. If he is on a big sugar crash cycle all the time or if he has sensitivities to food additives, those things can really affect behavior.

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Good luck!

There was a program on Dr. Phil yesterday about this - the expert on the show said to ignore behavior like that - if the child gets no attention, he realizes quickly that it isn't working. I forget her first name but her middle name was Brown and the last name was Braun - she has a book out and if you go to the website, you can get that info and maybe can watch the episode on your computer (not sure about that). There was an out-of-control kid about your child's age, screaming & crying, being disrespectful. The key thing they kept emphasizing is that the child is miserable and do deal with it from that perspective, to acknowledge the child's frustration & anger, to talk calmly right into his face and get him to focus on your words. Giving voice to his frustrations was the key.

Time outs don't work if you have to hold the child - they get all the attention. The program also said not to send the child to his room - which surprised me. It said to ignore.

You are right that what you are doing isn't working, and it will only get harder. Overpowering & controlling aren't going to work. Check out the other resources.

Pick one method of discipline and stick with it. Time outs don't work with all children.

I'm a strong believer in natural consequences which are initiated immediately. For example when he is disrespectful, you immediately send him to his room until he can come out and say he's sorry. Then you give him a hug, remind him of how to be respectful in similar circumstances and send him on his way to play or do whatever you'd asked him to do.

Do this quickly, without argument and without anger. Be calm and matter of fact. I'm guessing you've become quite frustrated and your irritation/anger shows. Discipline in anger rarely works.

Going to their room is the most common consequence for my grandchildren. We don't want to be around them if they aren't behaving. Being in their room gives them time to calm down and decide how to behave. It's not a time out per se because it's not timed. They choose when to come out. If they're unable to apologize they go back.

I question taking away what he's earned. Let him keep it. He's earned it. Focus more on what he does right. YOu can let some of the "bad" stuff go unnoticed. It sounds like your primary focus is on making him behave. You can't force him to do anything. You can reward him for good behavior and pay as little attention as possible to bad behavior. Give him a consequence, expect an apology, do not lecture or threaten. Be calm, matter of fact and compassionate.

Be consistent is the most important thing. Have simple consequences that fit the behavior. Give lots of positive attention. Expect good behavior. Find a way to not get so upset, frustrated, and angry with bad behavior.

I did notice you said he tries to break his toys. You may want to have him evaluated for anger. Perhaps all of you need help learning how to manage anger. Sounds like all of you, including your son, are at your wits end.

Have you also spanked him and you're just not saying? I don't know any kids spanked calmly and consistently after one warning for behavior like this from 2 years old who are still doing it at 4. Talking back and spitting at parents? Nope. Our kids never tried spitting at us, and only tried talking back once per child. They've never had a time out or been yelled at, and they almost never get disciplined because they almost always choose to heed a warning. You have not been firm or consistent enough. Time outs tend to make behavior worse because they are lenient and promote drama. If you have to hold him down, it's not an effective deterrent. Don't forget, he's not supposed to cooperate with discipline, he's supposed to choose to avoid it. That's how self control is learned-and he already has it at school-he's just not taking you seriously. If you've been avoiding spanking, or only doing it occasionally and only when you're at the end of your rope, this behavior is totally normal. You know he CAN behave if he does at school, and you're right, it will get worse as he gets older if he has no regard for your authority. Get the book Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campell Matson for what types of consequences are best in what situations in order to be loving and positive but also firm enough with timeless methods that have worked for generations. Dont' let your child get the best of you. Expect the best from him. Good work taking this seriously. 4 isn't too late, but almost.