I am putting this in for my mother. She was divorced last March from my father who works for Allstate. The judge said and put in an order that my Mother gets half of his pention that is sitting in an Allstate stocks and such. This is not the problem. The problem is that my mothers attorney has to fill out paperwork to a third party who reviews it to make sure that it was filled out correctly and everything is valid. Well, my parents have been divorced since March and my Mom's attorney has failed the paperwork process three times. Meaning, if the paperwork is not approved by the third party, the money still sits in my Dad's account. Certainly, this concerns my Mom. The paperwork is called Qualified Domestic Relations Order. My question is this, I understand this process takes time, but failing to get it approved three times? I called the independent third party and she said that every time it fails she mails along a templete and the reasons why it failed so it can be fixed. I do not know if I should find another attorney or stick with the one she has. I just want to know what is normal.
Ok, thanks to everyone who helped out. It took a year for the order to be approved by QDRO. During this time, the lawyer had the judge sign four unapproved QDRO's and when the fifth QDRO was finally approved, the lawyer had the judge sign the wrong unapproved QDRO which was quickly rejected by QDRO Consultants. Well, I called QDRO Consultants, got a copy of the approved QDRO, filed paperwork to get in front of the judge and had him sign it myself. Later, my Mom and I took her lawyer to small claims court for gross negligence resulting in loss of income..... WE WON!! Now I need to figure out how to notify the Bar Association. Thanks Everyone!
I would definitely get another attorney! It sounds like the thrid party is some sort of escrow agent who holds the money and waits for the attorney's paperwork. Maybe talk again to the third party and ask, off the record, their opinion of getting another attorney? Good luck! If you need a recommendation, let me know as my husband has connections!
L.,
First request a face to face for you and your mom with her current attorney. Ask for their opinion of why things aren't going through. Let them know that you spoke to the independent. Be specific as to what was said, bring notes if it makes you more comfy. Let him/her know that you expect the next set of paperwork to go through without any problems.
I personally would also take this time to state that I'll be looking for another attorney if this is unsuccessful & expect to see detailed billing statements with hours credited due to the complete failure of the last 3 meetings with the independent.
Be sure that you state that you are reasonable when you talk money with her attorney, but also bring up the fact that your mother has not had access to the money that she is owed, needed, and could have had access to since March and that it is now January...it's time for him/her to be reasonable.
Go in expecting results & if you don't get them (remaining confident, firm, & respectful) you will be forced to take your business elsewehere. Keep in mind her attorney did something right, they did manage to get her a piece of the action in the first place. Now you just want to collect, it's as simple as that.
If you jump right in to finding another attorney you'll be starting the process from scratch. It will draw out the process and take even longer for her to get her money. Sometimes these things take patience and clients can be very impatient and that's just what your dad is hoping for.
Know that she's likely facing some third party billing, even though she has not reaped any rewards from their services, either...unless your dad is responsible for that...someone's paying them.
All my best in working this one out. Let me know how it goes! :)
HeatherL
In my opinion, three times to file it incorrectly is unacceptable. That is the proof it is time to seek a new lawyer. Getting things done correctly can take years if the lawyer is well-known and busy, but filing it wrong three times is not competence. Pray first, because the battle is always won first by the right request, and then inquire as to a lawyer who has handled similar cases and done them right repeatedly, or at least a few times. Your mom has been patient enough, she shouldn't have to give her time and best interest to another novice. Make sure she writes down the issues that came up with the filing and finds a lawyer that is willing for her to inquire as to if these issues will present themselves again. Ask for a timeframe, and expect it to take possibly a little longer, but not forever.
I say, get a new lawyer. I would shop around and get recommendations from friends.
Hi L.. I worked for an attorney for over 10 years and let me tell you, when I or any of the girls in the office got the order to do a QDRO (Qualified Domestic Relations Order) we HATED IT!! They are hard to do, and the attorneys are really no help. One bit of advice though, the company (Allstate) should have an exact form that the attorney should be able to copy word for word. The only part that is tricky is the math part of it. They have to figure out the percentage that she was allowed and some companies want an exact dollar amount. I know it doesn't sound so terrible but it really isn't easy. Now, if the attorney has tried three times and has failed each and every time, that sounds like an issue. I would call the attorney and say HEY, whats going on? Get a copy of the paperwork and see if YOU can figure it out from all of their mistakes....if all else fails, get another attorney to get it done....if something happens to your father before the QDRO is entered, I am pretty sure your mom will then be S.O.L. Good luck.
I worked for a law firm for 7 years before becoming a SAHM for 2 wonderful little boys 29 months and 4 1/2 months, here is my take on your situation.
No matter when the paperwork is apporoved as long as your mother's attorney has half a brain and worded it correctly, your mother should be ok. Most QDRO's have a specific date i.e. date of separation or date the divorce was final and from that date is the date they use for the value of your mom's share even if it is still in your dad's account. The third party will just have to calculate everything from that date. I would however, push the attorney a litte more to get in done in a timely fashion. In Indiana there is a time limit to filing QDROs which must be approved by the Court first and then forwarded onto the third party. As long as it was approved by the Court in the correct time frame the third party, the attorney or who ever is not necessarily under a time frame.
Good luck.
**Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney, nor do I purport to be one. I am speaking on work experience without having explicit knowledge of your situation, the laws of your state or the technicalities of the situation at hand. Take all of the above into consideration when reading this response.**
The problem your mom is having is not that unusual. I work for a company that handles QDROs (among other things) and other pension administration issues.
What's probably happening is that the order your mom's attorney is drafting has to comply not only with current law (civil/common property, as well as IRS code) but also with the pension plan document (the legal document that the company signs to set up the rules of the pension plan.)
While I can't say what the exact problem is, it sounds like your mom's attorney might be trying to get something that isn't allowed- exceptions can be made for one reason or another but rarely are they granted outside of any explicit reasons stated in the pension plan document.
Sometimes these things take time to get worked out- your mom is entitled to her half of the pension benefits but if you are concerned that she is not getting her due share (i.e. the money is in the pension account, earning interest, and she's got nothing right now)- consider the following:
1. The payment she is due probably won't come in one big check- so if his pension is worth, say $200,000, she's not likely to open the mail box and have a check for $100,000 sitting in there. It's likely to come in monthly installments once your father is eligible for his pension. In other words, until and unless your dad retires or becomes eligible for his pension, she probably won't get anything until he does, and then it's likely to be a monthly pension check, the amount of which will be calculated by an actuary or someone else who does pension benefit administration (probably the same third party who is doing the QDRO).
2. The order is there- it's just a matter of getting the legalese hashed out. They are probably going over some of the more technical things- they aren't fighting over whether she's entitled to the money- she clearly is, according to the judge.
3. It's not uncommon for the process to take awhile. I am frankly surprised that the third party even talked to you- unless you have power of attorney or explicit permission from your mother, it could be considered violation of privacy. I've seen QDROs take upwards of 2-3 years to get settled- that's on the extreme side.
4. It's very likely that the amount in the account used to determine the pension amount will be balance that is in the account when the order is settled- not necessarily the date of the divorce. Remember, if they aren't divorced, they are still legally married, even if they are going through the process. Your mom might want to find out what the pension plan rules are regarding the date used to determine QDRO benefits (could be his retirement date, date of QDRO, date of divorce, etc.)
If your mom's attorney is being honest with you, let them keep working on it. If it takes longer or it seems like something is fishy, have your mom write a letter to the judge letting them know that the situation isn't resolving- and they may end up being able to expedite the process. Be persistent but not pushy, and remember that the pension income is supposed to be for your mom to live on when she's retired.
Be patient- but persistent- and good luck!
Immediately contact someplace like the Legal Aid Society or an organization that advocates exclusively for women. They can help you find a new attorney, which you most certainly need. FWIW, I don't think your mother could be held accountable IF her current attorney has acted incompetently.
I actually work for a pension fund, in the Domestic Relations Order Department. We have specific rules that the orders must follow in order to be qualified. We have denied files 3 or 4 times as well, and each time, we state the reasons for the "defects". We also provide model orders that contain information for an order to be qualified for our fund. Usually, if someone uses our model and does not alter its language, we accept the order. I think the lawyer is possibly not reading the letters from the third party correctly, or they are changing something. You may want to see if you can get the information/template that was sent to the lawyer and compare the documents to see what the discrepancies are. Also, see if the administrator/third party will review an order before it is taken to court, as this will reduce court fees. I hope this helps. If you need any more help, feel free to ask.
I don't know what County your mother resides in, but in Cook County, she can call CARPLS for referrals to legal aid / low cost attorneys (if she qualifies financially). Alternatively, she may be able to at least get some basic advice on what this document is. If she is at the DALEY Center downtown, she can also try the CARPLS Domestic Relations Assistance Desk which provides free services on a walk-in basis. There are also a number of agencies that handle domestic relations for qualified individuals. Alternatively, she can obtain private attorney referrals through the local bar association. One can obtain access to a directory of legal aid services via the following website: www.illinoislegaladvocate.org. Advice on the free advice desk is below:
"CARPLS Advice Desk
50 West Washington
Richard J. Daley Center
30th floor
Chicago, IL - 60602
Phone: ###-###-#### Map
Email Address: ____@____.com
Web Address: http://www.carpls.org
Description:
The Domestic Relations Self-Help Desk is designed to help people represent themselves in court on simple family law matters and to resolve post-decree divorce issues. The Desk, housed on the 30th floor of the Daley Center, is staffed by two CARPLS staff attorneys and an intake specialist. Services include advice, document preparation and referrals on all Domestic Relations Division cases including divorce, custody, visitation and child support.
Litigants should bring any relevant court documents with them. People will be served on a first come, first served basis. No prior appointment is necessary. The hours are Monday through Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m."
