My 3Rd Grade Daughter Is Repeatedly Getting in Trouble

None of those things sound that bad. If it were my kid, I would say something like, "Suzy, don't laugh annoyingly at school." And, "Suzy, don't draw cuts on people, it looks creepy and people will think there's something wrong with you." And, "Suzy, I hope I don't hear about you being rude to people any more."

And then I would go on with life. Kids go though phases, it sounds like she's just testing some things out.

I'm wondering why she's in the 3rd grade if she is actually at the 5th grade level. She's so ahead, she is probably bored in class because she's not being challenged. Maybe once that's addressed, her behavior will fall in line. Just a thought.

hm. i get your dilemma. and i'm really pleased to hear a smart, thoughtful, pro-active mom asking a question. nice change from the quality of questions we've been getting lately.
the obvious answer is that your daughter is academically and socially challenged. small towns are awesome, and small classroom sizes are too. but it's much harder to develop a good diverse mix of friends from a variety of backgrounds and with a variety of skills.

i appreciate how difficult it is to keep a kid active when there are no friends around and the weather doesn't allow for playing out in your yard. when we moved to our little farm from a busy bustling neighborhood my kids were suddenly in siberia. what would have been heaven for me at their ages was just kinda lonesome for them.

but this part of the solution does fall on you. while i think most kids are over-scheduled rather drastically these days, your daughter needs more. you can look for things like gymnastics or horseback riding or hockey, but don't forget things that might be right up her alley like battle of the books or odyssey of the mind or theater. she needs something on which to sharpen her mental claws. and it sounds as if it would be best if you could combine her need to use her brain more with opportunities to make new friends. you may have to try a few things until you find one that fits, but i'm betting this will be what can make the most positive and lasting change.

i think it's great that you limit her screen time, and that she's a reader. i wish we saw more of that.

but being rude and hateful at home for the last 2 years is troubling. i'm glad you don't condone it, but how DO you handle it? the fact that it's not just an occasional flare-up indicates that you need to take more effective, and probably stronger measures. OR that there's something really troubling going on under the surface and that more typical responses don't and can't work, and she needs counseling. don't shy away from that if that's the case. smart kids sometimes have wiring that needs expert care.

her teacher sounds a little helpless and ineffective. i'm very glad that you are not doubting her, and that you are working in tandem with her. maybe sit down with her and the principal and outline a pro-active plan for dealing with your daughter's naughtiness. being 'written up' sounds pretty lame. why isn't she getting sent to the principal's office for being disruptive?
as for being mean, that's where IIIII would impose zero tolerance. getting written up and writing an apology letter would not suffice. i'd get in touch with the other parents and see how THEY would like it handled. i'd be in favor of an in-person apology and some hard labor at their place, pulling weeds or scrubbing floors or washing cars. but if they are angry at your daughter and don't want her around, i'd look at hard labor somewhere else, and/or some volunteer time at a shelter in order to instill a little empathy. there's no way i'd let her get away with a wimpy apology letter.

no, i doubt the teacher is picking on her. no, she's too young to articulate effectively what's bothering her. and no, if she's been rude and hateful at home for the last 2 years, and is being mean and disruptive in class, she's really not all that 'good' of a kid. smart, sure.
and i'm not sure 'god made 'slower' kids different because they need more love' is helpful either. i mean, it doesn't even make sense, does it? how about 'everyone has different capabilities, and some aren't school-oriented like yours. but being smart in math doesn't make you a better person, so get over yourself.'

so there's a multi-pronged approach that will work for your smart but somewhat entitled daughter. she has a mom who is also smart and actively looking for solutions. you'll figure this out.

start with getting her busier, and more involved with people who can teach her some humility and empathy.
khairete
S.

I think that some people who have replied are thinking that your daughter is in 5th grade, and her behavior at home has been rude and disrespectful since 3rd grade. But I think you're saying she is at a 5th grade comprehension level, but is chronologically a 3rd grader, and is in the 3rd grade, and the unacceptable behavior started only recently?

My inlaws live in a tiny town in Kansas - fewer than 200 people, most of them nearing 80. The town is dilapidated, nearly deserted and everyone knows everyone. We lived there for an extended period of time when my dh was aboard an aircraft carrier for a lengthy deployment. Because the town is so remote, we never were nearby, so we took that opportunity so my kids could get to know their grandparents. My son was enrolled in the little school.

There's a principal, but she doesn't have an office, she's also the 4th grade teacher. There is no support staff. Kids ride an unbelievably long time on buses to reach the school from their farms. My inlaws live near the "center" of town, which is an unpaved road lined with abandoned buildings, one little cafe, a cinder block building that serves as the general store, and a place that is part lumber yard, part tool store, and part place where all the farmers meet to talk about the price of wheat and what's got the cows all riled up, so my son walked to school alone. When my FIL drives to the post office (which is a steel shack with some post office slots in it), he leaves his truck running in the middle of the road, with the door open. Everybody does.

Clubs and playdates are almost unheard of. When the kids get to school, they've already put an hour or more in on their family's farm, doing chores. When the school day ends, they go home to sweep, rake, hoe, milk, feed animals, gather crops or eggs, combine, plow, babysit so their older siblings and parents can do the farm chores, or even drive tractors. I was amazed at how young the kids are when they learn to do the dangerous farm work. Sure, there are opportunities for social gatherings, but they're often centered around the family, like the family supper table. There are pot luck suppers, often held in some old building that everyone calls Grandma Sylvie's place, because back in the 1890s that's where Grandma Sylvie lived, even though Grandma Sylvie has been dead for 70 years and there's nothing left of her "place" and the building was put up long after she died. But if you ask where the pot luck supper is, they'll tell you "just go 'round the Jones' place until you get to Grandma Sylvie's place". Oh, thanks. (Then, when you can't find any Jones' place, you find out that the Jones family lived in a house that blew down in 1967, and they had moved away during World War 2 anyway). But that's life in a little farm community. (I ended up writing a short story about my year in a nearly extinct small Kansas town, and of my FIL's memories of life there when he was growing up; it was such a memorable experience for me, because I had never seen anything like this. It was simultaneously loving, embracing, tough, remote and removed, gritty, dusty and rusty, and beautiful.)

The nearest department store (like a Walmart) is 30 miles away. There are clubs, and church activities, but they can be an hour's drive each way, and often with snow, you can't get to them.

So I think I can understand a little of what you're experiencing.

This might be one instance where more computer time might be useful. Youthdigital.com and techrocket.com both offer great online classes for kids who want to learn design, computer coding, and all kinds of tech stuff. Yes, there's a reasonable fee, but kids attend class, do assignments, and are accountable for producing the work. There is support offered as well. Maybe your daughter would like something like that. If you google online classes for kids, you'll see lots of options. Since she's obviously intelligent, she might really flourish and be challenged in a setting like that.

But you, and not her teacher or an online school - will have to help her learn graciousness and empathy and kindness. God didn't make certain people slower because they need more love. God made an amazing array of humans and animals, all with different abilities, needs, gifts, and souls. Your daughter has a gifted intelligence, which is wonderful. But she also has a mean attitude, which is not. Some of those people who appear "slower" may possess the most tender heart and the most determined spirit that you can imagine. It's not that they need to be loved more - it's that your daughter needs to develop a spirit of respect, humility, helpfulness, encouragement, empathy, support, and appreciation for all of the differences she will encounter in her lifetime. Those kids whom your daughter regards as slower may actually have more to offer than she does. An intellect without a heart is a very lonely and often useless thing, although a heart with a limited intellect is never lonely or useless.

Some people will pop up with the correct answer to a difficult question in 2.3 seconds. Some will take hours to arrive at the answer, and they may need physical help in holding a pen or typing on a keyboard with laborious effort. Some may not get the correct answer, and some may not be able to comprehend the question at all. But that doesn't determine who needs love.

My daughter has a very high IQ. She can take a computer apart. Big deal. I can take a computer apart. Oh, but that's where the very significant difference comes in. If I were to take a computer apart, it would then only be useful as random ruined bits of scrap metal. My daughter can take a computer apart AND PUT IT BACK TOGETHER ONLY NOW ITS BETTER! She can replace graphics cards, power supplies and all kinds of weird things inside the computer so that it runs better and faster and quieter and does more stuff.

But she's "slow". She has multiple, serious, chronic medical diagnoses. She takes many medications, some of which alleviate some debilitating physical symptoms, but also can cause "brain fog" or cognitive sluggishness, as the Mayo Clinic doctors expressed it. But that's better than the pain or the suffering that she experiences without the medications. Her heart rate is controlled, pretty much, with medication, but it can race out of control for no reason (it's a neurological problem), and when that happens without warning she may stumble or fall or get very dizzy and almost appear drunk. Her fatigue is overwhelming, and she's usually in pain.

So I encourage you to find some ways to challenge your daughter's intellect, but mostly to help her develop a humble, loving heart. It's not about some people needing to be loved more. It's about some people needing to love more.

Being smart or bored is no excuse.
It never kills anyone to be kind and sweet.
When she's rude at home, ask her why she thinks it's ok to act like that.
You are not rude to her and if she wants to see what it's like being on the receiving end of this I'm sure you can out rude her with one arm tied behind your back - but it's a nasty way to live.
It might be time for her to start scrubbing toilets so she has some time to THINK about her behavior and what is and isn't appropriate.

Honestly, this is the most bizarre classroom management technique I have heard of. "She got written up"?? Sounds like a military base or a company disciplinary hearing. Who does that to a 3rd grader and expects it to be effective? Sticker chart? Sure. "Traffic light" poster with kids putting their clothespin on the correct color light when they are "good to go" or "stop, stay in from recess"? Maybe - although that's usually in lower grades. But a teacher who cannot employ standard classroom management techniques to redirect a third grader who is laughing? You've got a problem in the classroom.

Your daughter's grades have nothing to do with this. And it doesn't help to tell her she's the smartest one in the class or look down on "slow kids" because "they need more love." You'd be better off saying every child is differently abled, and many are good at things your daughter is not good at. So she may have been taught, by accident, a level of arrogance and "I'm too good for this" dismissiveness of the rest of the class. But I do think you have to stop saying "She's a good kid" because right now, she's not. She has some behavioral issues. Yes, all kids are inherently good, but your daughter needs some techniques and discipline that she hasn't gotten so far. Maybe it wasn't noticeable when she was younger, maybe she's in a new phase, but just focus on the behavior and any new changes that could have precipitated it. And DO NOT try to excuse or explain it away because she's so smart and reads at this reading level or that. Absolutely no one wants to hear that. And she's picking up on that viewpoint by seeing her classmates as somehow lesser beings. She may need some extra challenges but any good teacher can manage that, particularly in a small class.

It sounds like she spends a lot of time alone, without friends/peers. So maybe her socialization skills with kids her age are lacking. While it's great she doesn't sit glued to a screen and that she's getting some exercise, I don't see anything in your post that indicates she spends any time with kids at all. So maybe you should set up some play dates and figure out ways to get her to moderate her behavior.

You don't say what forms of discipline you have used that don't work in the 10 weeks or so she's been in school. But if you're jumping around from one to the next, she's going to be completely confused. I do think consequences have to be immediate, and they may involve walking out of the room rather than engaging in a discussion every time about how rudeness is not nice. She's getting a huge payoff from all the attention - even negative attention. I think she needs to be sent off to her room with not more than 3 or 4 words, followed by a complete loss of your attention and focus. If you give her a lecture on rudeness and then tell her on Tuesday that she's losing TV on Saturday, that's pointless. There are some classic books that many people here will recommend - Love & Logic I think is one of them. What your daughter needs to see is that she gets much more of what she wants when she is kind, polite, and cooperative, and she gets NOTHING if she isn't. That doesn't mean a "write up" - meaningless to a child because there is no immediate consequence.

If you are sold on this school and the teachers are certified, I'd have the principal or school psychologist sit in on the class to observe what your daughter is doing and how the teacher is handling it. Maybe your daughter needs a different type of intervention, maybe the teacher needs some professional development in classroom management, maybe both or maybe something else. If this is something different in the way of a private school with standards where everyone, no matter how little, get's "written up", you should consider public education.

This is all presuming that there is no medical, neurological or psychological cause for your daughter's behavior. But she should qualify for intervention services from the state via the town or district you are in. You may also benefit from working with a child psychologist outside of school to find out why she's off on the destructive path and to work on strategies with an objective source.

Personally, I don't think being rude has anything to do with being smart or bored. I have an advanced child who is chatty in class sometimes because work is done faster, so we came up with extra work to keep occupied. The teacher will doll out extra projects, etc. there are ways to deal with that. Engage the teacher.
It sounds from what you've written your daughter is picking on the new girl - laughing (was this at the girl?), drawing on her and then rude to her.
You'd have to ask her why she is behaving this way. There's no way to discipline a child unless you understand why they are acting out - the reason behind it. Then deal with the underlying problem. Why is she targeting the child?
Ask open ended questions, and don't get up until you have answers.
This may just be me (as the mom of a child who was developmentally delayed) - I don't quite get the "slower kids god made different because they needed more love". You make them sound lacking somehow - they just have different aptitudes in different areas (maybe they excel at sports or music...). I know that's not your intention, we all have different strengths. I probably misinterpreted what you meant but it struck me funny.

ETA: Elena, what wonderful advice you have given this mother! Thank you so much for your post!

Original:
No, the teacher isn't nitpicking. It's really hateful to be mean to the new kid. And drawing cuts? Ouch, and I don't mean ouch to a cut.

Your daughter sounds bored. You mention that school seems to be a social outlet, and I guess that you mean rather than an academic exercise. It doesn't matter if she's smart. If she wouldn''t use school for its purpose, and acts out instead, then she is going to cause problems for everyone else in the class.

If I were you, I'd be scheduling an appointment with the school counselor and talk through this. Your daughter needs counseling. Get the counselor to help you with this.

I agree that the idea of "writing up" a child seems very odd. What does that mean, exactly? Does "writing up" involve any other form of consequence for a behavior that's written up, or does it merely mean the teacher makes a note and then tells the parents what happened? If the teacher is not dealing with behaviors right then and there IN school, is she expecting you to give consequences at home instead? While I am a strong believer that kids need to know early that parents know what happens in school and that what they do in school can also bring consequences at home -- there must be immediate consequences at school as well, or the child learns that the teacher sees things but does exactly nothing. If "writing up" is all that happens, your daughter is quickly figuring out she can do these attention-seeking, boredom-based things and there will be no real negative result in school, so she'll keep repeating the behaviors - which is what seems to be happening.

Try to make the teacher your ally here. See the teacher in person ASAP (without your child there and at a time when you and teacher both have time to talk--don't catch the teacher on the fly as she arrives or at the end of a day when she's going out the door). Tell her that you believe the behaviors are happening, and they represent a real change in your child's overall behavior -- a sudden change, which is a red flag that something is going on with your child (and that something is not mere mean-girl-ness either). Does this small school have a school counselor there IN the school each day? That person should sit in with you and the teacher. If there's no such person, the school system should have a school psychologist or counselor who should be strongly requested to come to meet with you and the teacher. Ask for specific actions to take, consequences to use, and words to say to nip the rude, disruptive behavior in the bud BOTH at school and at home.

Your daughter sounds academically bored, plus she may be hating being in such a small class in such a small school. Small class sizes are not always the wonderful thing many of us parents believe they are. You cannot change her class size or school size but you can ensure that there are consequences in school; that she is too busy outside school for her to be mouthy or rude with you at home; that you have good and very consistent consequences at home; and that you ASK her with love what's up with her. Have you had a talk with her -- not at a time when she's just been in trouble at either school or home -- about how she feels about her lessons, her teacher, her classmates? She needs very open lines of communication to express to you what sounds like frustration. Ignore whatever of the home rudeness you can (it can help to be deaf to anything that's not polite--when she says for the fourth time, "Mom, I SAID I wanted X," you can turn and say coolly, "I can't hear that tone of voice or that kind of demand" and do not respond until she uses the appropriate voice and words, for instance).

In this tiny town, are there Girl Scouts or would those troops be with exactly the same kids who are in her class at school? (I love GS and am a leader but would not recommend it IF it's the same group -- is there a troop that's active and fun but is with different kids?). Is there any county recreation department, even if you have to drive to another town? Where she could find some classes or groups that interest her and take her outside her own bored head? You may have to hunt hard in an area like yours but she needs those play dates others mentioned as well as some activities and enrichment for her bored brain too.

There are some good books about development -- "Your Eight-Year-Old" I think is one. It's a series of slim books that go year by year and talk about how kids those ages are thinking and feeling. If she's around eight to nine, be aware that that is an age with a lot of pushback and self-assertion for many girls, at the same time they are feeling a lot of self-doubt. Author's name, I think, is Ames. Find out about your daughter's age and stage and her behavior may become clearer as a phase that, yes, must be disciplined for, but which also will pass.

And as someone else noted, please don't emphasize to her that she's the smartest and other kids are "slower kids." Even if you are using those terms only here, with us adults, she has surely picked up on your attitude that she is the smartest and fastest learner and that will feed her sense that she shouldn't be with those kids anyway, so she'd just as soon do things that interest her even if they're not appropriate -- as long as they occupy her and amuse her, and the teacher is only writing her up or giving very weak consequences, she is going to feel that as the smartest she's always going to come out on top. Not saying she's a bad kid at all! But she sounds like she is trying to carve a niche for herself in a tiny, dull class, and it's not a positive niche. She needs to be occupied, a lot, with things that interest and expand her. And you may need to work harder to find those things than if you were in a larger town.

If it would help, see if she would respond well to being given some responsibility at school. That can make kids act better quickly. Do they have school safety patrol kids? Is that set for the year or can she apply? Do they have student "runners" who help teachers, carry messages or books to other places? Library helpers? Be careful that she doesn't view any school responsibilities as confirmation that she's special compared to everyone else. But responsibility can improve some kids' attitudes as well as keep them busy.

Well she is probably bored out of her mind (I know I would be if I was in her shoes) but even so, why isn't the teacher dealing with this more effectively? So what if she gets "written up" what does that even mean? or teach her?
As far as her being rude and hateful at home, it's hard to say what that's all about but I was a very active, very social child (also a good student) and if I had no friends to play with and my parents hardly even let me watch TV or play video/computer games every day I'd probably be a miserable little bi*** too. Poor thing :-(

Have you talked to her teacher or is this just via notes home to you at night? I'm wondering why you haven't had an actual conversation with her. She is your best ally in this situation.

If a parent isn't willing/able to work WITH the teacher to come up with a solution (which may mean both of you sitting down with your daughter and really putting the heat on her), I don't see what you can really do from home.

It's very possible she is bored. It's also possible she and this teacher don't mix well. Maybe she is reacting badly to this teacher's style. No way to know except to communicate with her. Go in with an open mind and a spirit of helpfulness. Most likely the teacher will appreciate it. Good luck.

You write back and let the teacher know that you expect her to handle this behavior in class and thank her for letting you know how she's handling it.

I mean, she's the teacher. She is responsible for your child at school. She is supposed to hand out consequences, not you. She is supposed to figure out what is going on. With only 13 kids she has plenty of time to keep an eye on the kids and see what's going on.

I wouldn't put up with this. Just because you're in a small town doesn't mean she doesn't have to do her job.

I think your kid is bored. Bored. Bored.

I work as a teacher for middle school and high school. But, I also have been in the lower grades as well. I can tell you that 3rd grade is a shift, a lot of things change academically, and socially. It has to do with body changes, and the development of the "invisible audience" as opposed to the "I am the center of the world".

My guess is that your poor daughter is BORED! She has nothing to challenge her at school: she is 2 grades ahead of what others are doing. How does she fit socially? It seems that maybe she is not being met at her developmental level socially. She reads books to escape life because at least there she can get more interaction in her mind. I know I was the same way.

I have to say that having more computer time might really be a great idea. She can build social networks with people who have the same interests as her, and she won't be limited by those around her. I also would consider putting her into either 5th or 6th grade. I realize that she is only 3rd grade, but she needs to be with academic peers. I recently read an article that if a child is ahead of their peers, they can have a lot of social issues, and can seem like the "bad" kid when really, she just isn't challenged. Moving up at least 2 grades will help this. As time goes by, it will even out, like in college and life, but right now, moving her would do her the best service. Moving up one grade does not have the same results.

She needs more challenges academically, socially, and intellectually. She is just bored, and has been for years I imagine. She is acting out at home because she is probably so tired of being "good" at school while she is bored she has reached a breaking point. I have been her. I know what she feels. Please help her!

If she is at 5th grade levels then why is she in third grade? She sounds bored and needs to be challenged.

I think the attitude at home may just be her age and she is testing what she can get away with or she is picking it up from someone at school.

Sounds like she's a good girl at times when she's not being rude and hateful at home who is frustrated and pushing boundaries. It's a new thing at school, so you treat it like a fresh new challenge and go full steam. My answer is disjointed as I missed the trouble at home part until I reread after my answer, see ***part below..sorry!

My oldest (she's in 4th grade now) has always been easy and perfect and exceptional in school, but in kindergarten she started acting out midway through the year with unbelievable (for her) shenanigans. The angelic teacher consoled me and assured me many kids do that, especially once they get comfortable as a natural push of boundaries. I was having none of it! I was like, "Thank you for your understanding but she is absolutely not allowed to be disruptive in school and I want to know every time she is." I explained to my daughter that I would be speaking to the teacher every day and if I ever got a bad report _____would happen (I'm no slouch on discipline so she believed it) and that was the end of that. She's never been in trouble again. And for some reason her more difficult sibs haven't been either. But their day will come to act out I'm sure and when it does I will take the SAME approach: No tolerance for as long as it takes. It's been an ongoing dialogue in our home since birth (and I'm sure yours too): What types of behavior are NOT ok.

At your daughter's age, she is completely able to understand the gravity of things and control herself, which is great! You have to have a serious talk with her (or several) AND a discipline scenario you are serious about. I'm glad you're not a couch parent, but for the specific offenses you list here you only say you talked to her about it. And you sound confused. Like maybe the teacher is just picking on her. That's OK since this just started happening, but now you need to move in like a brick house. Although, she quit the laughing...the pen drawing doesn't actually seem like a thing..my kids come home with pen marks on them all the time...the rude to new girl thing could be serious, but all in all, you're only in the early stages of figuring this out, and it could be nothing. But be on guard! ***WAIT wait wait... just noticed the rude and hateful at home for two years thing. ??!!! How did that proceed for so long if you are serious about discipline? What are her consequences for those episodes? Probably not tough enough! Kids will be EXTREMELY rude and hateful if allowed (I know some of these types of kids) but not if it's not tolerated and the consequences are for real.

FIRST, get your very clear boundaries set and be ready to follow through when she gets home. SECOND find ways to enrich her general experience because she sounds bored bored bored and I feel sorry that she's not having more social outlets. THIRD work with the teacher to manage this behavior, you're a a team. If you end up seeing that the teacher is fibbing or picking on your daughter, that's a different battle to address later.

Good luck! Your daughter sounds very mature, the show "World's Strictest Parents" (free streaming online) is geared to troubled teens, but has some great tactics that could apply to a mature 5th grader.

I also think like others who say she seems bored and play dates will be good for her. Can always be straight from school ....or days when there is no school.