"F's"?

An attitude adjustment might be in order, but I would also have her tested for a learning disorder like dyslexia and also have her vision and hearing tested. She may be acting like she doesn't care, but may, in fact, be having problems in those areas. A student can be very successful in the lower grades, but find it difficult to succeed in 4th grade when the demands on the individual student increase. My other thought is about the peers that she associates with at school - are they good students or are they failing too? Is she trying to fit in with that crowd? Good luck - you are smart to resolve this quickly.

Even if it is the teacher, that life. She must learn to adapt to new people and new settings. I would just let her fail. She does not want to do work so be it. She will find out there are consequences to her actions. She has the rest of the year to redeem herself. Did that with one of my boys and it worked well. Sometimes you just have to get tough. I might try taking away an electronics if she has any. Good luck.

I went back through some of your answers to kind of get an idea.
I see that your husband recently passed away (a year, right?) I wonder if this past year you are seeing failing grades because she is missing her dad and his family? (you mentioned something about your inlaws never contacting you in a previous post)
Is she seeing a counselor to deal with her grief? Often times grief comes out as defiance....
L.

Up until now your child has been learning to read. Now she is having to read to learn.

There is also a lot more writing comprehension and collecting information for reports. Maybe she needs some physical therapy to build up her had strength. Look up "fine motor skill therapies" for her hands.

Consider working on her reading skills. Start off by having her read a chapter and then you ask her questions about what she just read.. Maybe see if you can get books on tape..

The other thing is that on many tests, even math tests, they are word problems. I used to tutor 4th graders and the first thing I did was taught them to read the questions first, THEN read the passage. That way they would know what they were supposed to looking for.

The other thing is have her use a "reading guide" like a blank piece of paper or a ruler , so that her eyes are guided along with the sentences. Sometimes too many lines and words, the students gets lost while reading.

Her eyes could be getting tired from all of the reading, so make sure you have her eyes checked, EVEN if they were checked last year. 4th grade was when 3 of us girls in 1 classroom found out we needed glasses. I had no idea you were supposed to be able to see the overhead or the chalkboard when sitting towards the back of the classroom.

Are these failing grades due to not turning in homework.
Doing poorly on the tests? Not enough class participation? Or just her attitude?

Find out exactly why she is failing. There has to be a reason, Maybe it really is getting harder for her. Or because she is not interested in what they are teaching.. example 4th grade they were learning about Little House on the Prairie.. many of the boys were just not interested in this book. But they loved the practical learning that went along with this study..

I would see if the school can assign a tutor for her during school hours. .

There was a huge group of us parents that volunteered for the 4th and 5th grades at our daughters school. I went 2 times a week to work with a young boy who was in 4th grade (he had problems reading chapter books. His eyes could not follow the sentences on a busy page. He did end up with glasses for classwork. And I went one day to work with 2 children in 5th grade with their math.. Their problem was that they had never learned their multiplication tables.

Have her evaluated for dyslexia or other learning disabilities.
If she's having trouble she might be 'not caring' to cover it.
If the evaluation turns up no difficulties then it's her attitude that needs adjusting.
What DOES she care about?
You have to find her currency.
If she fails then she will be held back a year.
Maybe she needs that to happen before she cares.
In the mean time if the work is not done then there is no fun.
No activities, no friends, no phone, no computer outside of school work, no tv, no music.
If she does some work and puts in her best effort then she'll earn something back.
The minute she slacks off again then she loses it again.
In the mean time she can read and do chores and that's it.

It sounds to me like she's having the same issues with spelling and English that my son had last year when he was in 4th grade: Laziness. He did excellent in his other subjects, but he wouldn't study his spelling and grammar.

For us, real life consequences were the best. He "hates spelling," and "doesn't care" if he fails, he'd say. I told him quite simply that if he didn't get at least a B on his spelling tests, he would lose his iPod Touch and all TV for the week. The very next spelling test, he brought home an A.

I never harped on him or fought with him over homework. I told him that his grades and homework were his responsibility, and that if he brought home bad grades because he chose not to put in the effort, there would be consequences.

He tested me a couple of times by bringing home C's. And each time it was obvious that he hadn't studied. I followed through on my promise to remove his favorite things until he brought home an A or B, which he always did the following week. It wasn't lack of understanding, it was lack of effort that was his problem.

Figure out her "currency." Find what she absolutely loves. And then, tell her that if she brings home less than a B, she loses that thing. Then back off and stopp nagging. Give her the responsibility to do HER job, and follow through on yours.

Lastly, and this is most important in an academically focused home like yours (and mine): Be sure you celebrate the triumphs. It's easy to get focused on the bad stuff to the point that the good stuff isn't recognized. So be sure that you mention how proud you are of the hard work that she's put into those A's and B's.

ETA: I just wanted to add, taking away the things he loves never made him resent his schoolwork. The mantra in our home is: We do our work before we go run off an have fun. We don't procrastinate.

I don't especially enjoy some of the responsibilities I have, but I do them first knowing that I can relax or have fun when I'm finished. That's a real-life lesson that all children need.

When did your husband pass? If it was within the last couple of years, this could be part of it. Is she going through puberty? Could she be depressed? She's not your older so do your best not to compare- that just makes everyone miserable.

And if you think a tutor will help, get one.

Where is the teacher? Did you have any meetings with her? Is there a bully in the class? Has your DD had a problem with something lately, like a new school, a teacher she doesn't like, her sister moving out? Not caring is really code for something else, IMO, and you need to find out what. You don't need to wait for the guidance office. If she's specifically failing English and spelling, it could be related. And you need to address the teacher and find out what is/isn't taught and if you need to request another class or if you need to get an outside tutor or if you need to work with her more at home.

WHY doesn't she want to do her everyday assignments? I would start there. My SD had a problem in 4th with a teacher she didn't like and she would read instead of paying attention in math. And, predictably, she was floundering at the end of the year. We had to have some sit-down meetings with the teacher and work with SD herself. We asked her to make up a list of things she had to do, and how she would get those tasks done. We had veto power, but we got her to talk about her class, and got her to participate with the consequences. If she didn't do her math, she didn't go out - which was HER idea.

And if your husband has passed away and you never got grief counseling for the kids, please do so. She may be reacting to that. You could have a depressed child.

My Son was always an excellent student until this year (4th grade), and is now getting Ds and Fs. I talked to his teacher and she said that many students find the adjustment from the lower grades (where they coddle you and you get credit for simply doing the work at all) to the 4th grade. I have realized that I am going to have to sit with my son every night and keep him on track until he finds what he needs to succeed. I wish I had more advice but we are just starting this journey ourselves.

4th grade is VERY different from the lower grades and 3rd grade.
Expectations are also higher.
Kids, also are changing developmentally.
And it can be a real culture shock for some.
Some girls in 4th grade even get their periods and what not.
Many changes and academically too.
But they don't always have coping skills nor the matured emotional development to deal with it.
And it is a real, life lesson in how to deal with things.
From 4th grade and on, it will only get harder.
Each child is different and what will reach them, or not, to improve them.

I suggest you talk to the teacher and let her handle this at school. If your daughter is having a bad time at school she needs somewhere that is low stress and not about school.

By taking the authority away from the teacher and making this a problem for home instead you're making the teacher less. She needs to keep your daughter in at recess, make her do her work at school, the teacher needs to be the "bad" guy and take away privileges or give rewards for classroom behavior.

Do you study with her? Do you review spilling words and vocabulary words with her and help her prepare for the tests?

Some kids understand what it takes in order to prepare for quizzes and tests. For others, it's a process. Don't assume she knows what she needs to do and is just being defiant or apathetic. Chances are, she just has not idea what to do.

I'm wondering about LD issues too (learning disabilities).

I suggest that this has become a power struggle. I suggest you back off, tell
Her you know she can do better and that you're going to let her decide what she's going to do. After all, failing in the fourth grade isn't as damaging as it will be later. Let her learn now to be Iin charge of her grades.

It sounds like getting good grades is very important to you and you've taken on the responsibility to see that it happens. Give the responsibility bac to her. Continue to provide an environment for doing homework. She has to spend 30 minutes without tv or other distractions each night. But without pressure to do homework. Let her be bored.

Praise her with every small effort. Make no comments when she doesn't do her work but don't let her play during that 30 minutes. Let her read. That is homework.

I just read the last part of your post more carefully. She's getting As and Bs so I don't understand how she's failing. Not turning in homework may lower her grade but not give her Fs.

By getting As and Bs it indicates she is learning the subject. I suggest that you stop telling her she's failing. Praise her work. Approach her from the idea that even tho she knows the subject and the homework is boring it needs to be done just because. Talk about the life lesson of doing what is expected in order to get what we want. She is young and may not understand this. Don't lecture. Remind her every once in awhile.

It's very important to stress learning for learnings sake. Make grades not so important. I suggest that once you focus on how well she learns and how smart she is she will be more apt to choose doing her homework.

She's only in 4th grade. Can't you sit her down at a table and not allow her to do anything else until all assignments are done? Start taking things away, no access electronics until she completes whatever the homework is for the night? SOME of this is still somewhat in your control....

I can understand why spelling may not be her thing. All you have to do is say, I believe in you, and I will not let you fail, and then be prepared to shell out a few hundred dollars a week for a tutor-simple.

This can be the time when smart girls aren't cool and getting a's would mean the hot boy would pass her by.
Check into social issues like bulimia and anorexia, bullying, drugs, sex -even in 4th grade. look with open eyes and really see what your dd is saying, because school work could be the first symptom.

try to take the fight out of the home work, set her up a cozy little nook in the kitchen or something- maybe a cute organizing bin and some new pencils and fun erasers. I would still be doing it with her and by that I mean I am in the room and she can show me what she has to do and I check it when she is finished, and when it's done she gets a reward, Have maybe 30 mins of video games or texting friends, or a family game immediately that day or if she is one to be motivated by long term goals earning new clothes or a toy after a week or month of no fighting the homework. If she is practicing her spelling words let her type them on the computer or trace them in colored marker or she makes a memory game of the words on index cards and you play them with her. maybe once she is doing well tell her she can invited a friend over to study with her, supervised of course.

Do practice tests. you might have to guess what would be on the test but at least you can see what is going on if DD doesn't know the material or is having test anxiety or can't read the questions or what ever.

I do have a child in 4th right now, -- while 4th grade is still tougher, It's not like the format for spelling tests has changed, so how can you blame the teacher for not teaching? it's spelling, you just have to memorize it. I could see if the teacher isin't providing as much practice time during the school day but it still isn't new material. It's longer words and words that might be exceptions to our wacky English rules but it's still just spelling. Even if the teacher doesn't assign it your dd should be practicing it everynight, maybe start w just 4 words and add on each night. Saying she is ok with vocab but not spelling indicates a motivation problem, and again that could be a social issue or an over scheduling/lack of sleep/something going on at home issue.

The English can be tough, I think the "inferring" stuff my son has been having to do can be really subjective. but at our school the program builds and this is still stuff he had been exposed too before but a little harder now. and less questions so missing one can really hurt. reading a lot and discussing is the only thing I can think of to help with this. if by English you mean subject and predicate again its just practice and drill and if homeschool mom's can do it, i'm sure you could handle teaching parts of speech if the teacher truly wasn't doing it. and yes she should be but if it were me I would find a way to help my kid myself if I needed too.

good luck

If I were you, I would get different testing than you've gotten already. There is something wrong here, and I think that since she does well in certain subjects and badly in others is a sign of that. You've been told that she doesn't have a learning disability, but I really think that they are missing something. If she can't understand what she is doing or has a lot of difficulty with it, that could be why she says "I don't care" and fights you.

I would take her to a speech/language therapist (not for the speech part) and get her receptive language tested, if you haven't done that already. Also, try to find specialized testing for dyslexia. Regular testing doesn't test for that. If she actually has dyslexia, even a mild form of it, regular studying doesn't help.

Good luck~

All the punishments in the world will not make any difference. You know the Why behind it.

You're comparing your kids - two very different people - in this question, so it wouldn't be unusual if you were doing it at home too, even if you didn't mean to do it.

Perhaps your younger daughter feels like she can never live up to her older sister's level, and has decided it isn't worth it to even bother trying. 'Not caring' is a coping mechanism. It doesn't mean she actually does not care, it means she's protecting herself by making failure a choice rather than a circumstance.

Your 4th grader is not like your 18 year old and never will be. She has to feel loved and accepted for who she is and what she can do, regardless of what her sister did.

Now that said, I could be completely off the mark with the sister thing. I got great grades until 5th grade. At that point, some classmates had started giving me a hard time about getting As and such, so I stopped doing it for awhile to get them off my back. (I am an oldest child, so I had no one to live up/down to.)

I agree that 4th grade is an adjustment period.

Our daughter had a rough 4th grade and she always was an honors student, never had to study. After a lot of thought, talking with daughter, the teacher, counselor and principal...... we came to the conclusion that a large part of the problem was the teacher. At mid term we did the unthinkable and switched her to another classroom.

This was not a comfortable move because the original teacher resented us. However, after this move, we had 1 close family tell us that they had issues with their honors son with this teacher and his 4th grade year was he$$. We also got more unsolicited info from some other parents who had issues with this teacher.

We also enlisted help with a private tutor. Our tutor was amazing... it is like she brought our daughter's spirit back and she ended the year with good grades. She has never had anything lower than a C.

In the end, this teacher's contract was not renewed for the following year and when that happened, people came out of the woodwork with complaints about her.

I am not saying this can all be to blame on the teacher's part for your situation. I do feel it is important to involve the teacher with these issues. (I am also a teacher... certified substitute for 13 yrs). You have to figure out where this new attitude is coming from.... teacher, friends, etc.

Now in hindsight, I can see from early on that this teacher did not like my daughter. I don't expect every teacher to "like" each child because they are all different but I do know the personality between the teacher and my daughter was not good. The teacher would try to argue with my daughter instead of help her. One comment she made once was "___ and I just lock horns every day". Well, if that is happening then something is wrong somewhere. Of course my daughter is no perfect angel but she did not deserve the treatment she got from that teacher.

Moving forward, things were much smoother, she graduated this past June with Honors and is now in college living on her on in her condo about 20 minutes away.

Best of luck to you!

I would say this is more than "Not caring" and punishing her is not the answer, it will make her resent school work, and you for making her do it when she doesn't understand or know how. Something is not "clicking" for her and she needs help. If you want a good tutor, I would on Craigslist under education or services. A lot of substitute teachers and retired teachers as well as professional tutors are available there.

I would consider changing teachers and see what happens, it could be that the teacher doesn't teach in a way that she is used to, or in a way that connects with her. If you are concerned about dyslexia check out this website, I saw her talk a few weeks ago, and she is amazing. She will give you the information you need to see if your daughter has it. My guess would be probably not, but I could be wrong:
http://www.dys-add.com/.

You know-it's sad but very true that even with those crappy crappy grades-they won't fail her. I know because we just went through it with my youngest in 5th grade (and he wasn't much better in 4th). They said they knew he knew the materials and was smart enough so passed him through.
Now in 6th,he seems to have turned a corner. Not a D in sight (at the moment anyways).
Try your best to get her to do the work but know that all the work in the world won't pull up the test grades-my oldest has straight a's on the homework but got a "F" on the test and is getting a D so....

Ask the teacher what information to study before the test. She may just need additional preparation. Get the spelling words, practice them each night. Ask the teacher for worksheets to study before the English tests. This will help her prepare for what's coming in middle school.