Bully in the Making?

Ya know, kids have been working out these issues themselves since the beginning of civilization.
Back off and let her find her place!

Are you actually accusing this child of being a "bully in the making" because her parents bought her a toy (I buy my kids toys, even $40 ones, for no reason all them time) and because she does not want to entertain your toddler? I don't know what you expect of this girl, or why you almost seem jealous of her, but she is not the problem here. I think you should just let your DD handle this one how she sees fit as far as her friendship goes.

Have to agree with a bunch of the answers below.

Here's the deal: not everyone is going to like your girls, and your girls are not going to like everyone.

Would you really force your own kid to play with some other child if they didn't want to? Wouldn't THAT be oppressive and manipulative?

It seems that you look at your girls as victims instead of teaching resiliency. Teach them to just brush it off if the other girl doesn't return waves, doesn't want to play. "Oh, guess they're just busy." or "You know, not everyone wants to play together. That's okay. What do you think would be fun for us to do?"

Our job as parents is to teach kids how to move past moments like this. Instead, YOU are getting stuck. It's very tempting to label a child when they aren't doing/behaving how you would like. This girl's behavior seems to be a problem for you. The fact of the matter is, how you handle this will go a long way in teaching your kids how to deal with the small adversities and difficult people in their lives.

My advice would be to stop putting your energy into figuring out little girl dynamics which are really not your business and focus on helping your own kids. It sounds like your girl really needs some help-- you can't change the other kids. Focus on your own.

S., you posted recently about how your DD's school counselor said your daughter would benefit from some short-term therapy or counseling. And you noted then that the issue is her interactions with these neighborhood kids -- not school friends, not at Girl Scouts, not at her art class, etc. Those are fine, you said. Now you're posting, again, about the neighborhood gang.

Did you pursue the idea of that short-term therapy for your child? Please do. That needs to be your focus here -- not the latest drama with the kid who doesn't fetch the Band-Aid or who gets the same toy as your child. Those things are not bullying. In fact they're normal, as most kids are very self-focused and that does not make them bad or bullies. It makes them children.

We all have just so much "mental real estate." Yours is being overcrowded by this focus on the interactions with the neighborhood kids. Please stop giving them so much of your precious mental real estate; use the time you're thinking about and observing them as time you can better spend on getting your older DD some play dates, one on one, with school and Girl Scout friends. I am one who earlier recommended ramping back your daughter's play with the neighborhood kids (but not stopping it altogether, as you now seem to be suggesting). Please re-read the responses from your recent question.

Your daughter is only in first grade. When she and your younger one are both in school, you are going to encounter school drama, etc. Please work now on getting perspective or you are in for a very rough 13 years of schooling -- not for your kids, but for yourself as you worry over every interaction. Meanwhile, get your older child things to do that interest her and are not dependent on the neighborhood group.

Like I said regarding the earlier post -- the whole thing of "hanging with the neighbor kids" will fade out on its own as your child gets older and more involved with friends from her own activities and school. Let it fade; get your kids friends their own ages and don't say yes every time your daughter sees these kids outside and wants to go out; .and stop focusing so much on wanting your kids to be given attention by kids who aren't into giving attention to them. Your kids will be fine; they will figure out themselves that the neighborhood kids are a bore for ignoring them.

"It would be really hard for DD to see these kids play and not be allowed to join." You said it.

Seriously mom? You're going to exclude her from the group so she won't be excluded from the group?

This is overprotecting your kid. Don't do it. Trust that your daughter can handle a little adversity. And by the way, it's good for people to experience a moderate amount of adversity, and very bad for them to be protected from all adversity by mom.

And based upon your example of this girl buying a toy, it's a little premature and possibly judgmental of you to label this other girl. Maybe you have a better example of "mean," but that's not one of them.

First, the "mean" girl is not a bully. You have not cited one instance of bullying. She's not nice, but she's not bullying your children. If you think she is, then you don't know what "bully" means.

It seems like you are jealous that the mean girl is the main girl. I also don't think that you should expect these girls to include your 3 YO like she's part of the group. I'm sure she is very sweet, but at 3 she plays on a different level. This may be why the "mean" girl just ups and leaves - she doesn't want to entertain your 3 YO.

I suggest you stay out of it.

You've been posting on this a lot, and in all of your posts I see why you don't like the other child. But I haven't seen, in any of them, that your daughter is really complaining. I'd let them work this out themselves.

Don't get me wrong. I do understand why you don't like the situation and I sympathize. And I've even been known to encourage one friendship over another with my child when I see behaviors in a friend that I'm not fond of. But I don't do it by prohibiting my child from playing with anyone, or saying anything negative about a friend. I do it by suggesting more playdates with the friends I think are good influences. If your child is busy having school friends over on a Saturday afternoons, she'll won't even think about playing with the neighborhood girls outside. Yes, setting it up is more work than playing with neighborhood friends, but if you are really concerned and want her to expand her circle of friends, you can make it happen.

ETA: I don't think anyone is saying that the main girl is not rude. She is sometimes being rude. But rude does not equal bully - especially at age 5ish. And regardless, 1) your daughter has to decide for herself that it's not worth being friends with someone who isn't nice to her and 2) I think the best way you can support her in this is by inviting other friends over as often as possible, so your daughter has other options for friends/playmates.

Have your daughters play with kids their own age, problem solved. Rather than explaining to your girls they are just now wanted you make these girls out to be bullies.

So no! just because someone doesn't want to play with your daughter, just because you keep telling your daughter to forced herself on them, doesn't make the "main girl" a bully!

After reading your what happened I get the feeling you tell your daughter how compassionate she is, just a little too much. She has reached a point where she sees that as what makes her special. So she runs home to get bandaids which is a good thing. Problem is she is also looking down at these other girls in the same terms. They are not falling all over themselves to be so kind to her. That doesn't make them bullies or even mean. They just don't want to play with your daughter this is perfectly normal, kids generally want to play with kids their own age.

These kids are in preschool, right? If they are a couple of years younger than your daughter. Set up playdates for your older daughter with kids her own age. Also, do NOT have your older daughter entertain your toddler when she has friends over. That is not fair to your older daughter. If your younger one gets upset, YOU entertain her. While you may think your 3 year is sweet, her sister might just want some time with her own friends.

You have posted several things about this lately. You need to give your daughter the tools to deal with less favorable people. Not everyone is going to like your kids and your kids aren't going to like everyone. Affect her self esteem? No, again give her the tools to deal with this. You are making it worse.

Is this little girl a bully? No, I don't think so. She is a preschooler. They are in different age brackets right now.

$40 toys? Yes, I would buy my kids toys for no reason.

*I'm a little confused about this, but I'm assuming you have an older daughter (age unknown, but a couple years older than these girls, ages also unknown...) who plays with these girls regularly, as well as a 3yo dd who wants to join in?

I'm not sure where the bullying aspect comes in... All kids are manipulative to a point, so I guess I would need a better example than the fact that she got the same toy your daughter got before I would label her as a bully.

I also wouldn't consider her a bully for not wanting to dote on a 3year old. I can speak from older-sister experience that -no matter how sweet or adorable she may be- little sisters are just not as much fun to play with as friends your own age are.

I really don't see the drama, beyond what is in your own mind. If she were to have tried to get your daughter's toy from her, or called her a baby for wanting to play with it I would have a problem. If she was telling the older daughter that her little sister is a brat and shouldn't play by them, or actively picking on her, I would see a problem. But just getting a toy, and not having interest in playing with the toddler? No problem whatsoever in my mind. I would hate for this girl to lose the potential friendship of your daughter because you are nitpicking her behavior.

I also want to point out that even IF she has less-than-desirable personality traits, you really should leave it to your daughter to identify and decide how to deal with them on her own, unless they become extreme. She needs to learn to stand up for herself, and to negotiate the tricky waters of peer interaction. If you step in every time you see a friendship that is less than ideal, she will never learn how to gauge her friendships for herself. If it is your daughters behavior that is causing her to be excluded from the group, then she will either have to adjust her behavior, or learn to deal with the fact that different personalities mesh in different ways; and that hers doesn't mesh with theirs. It may seem cruel, but that is the way the world works, and everyone has to learn this and learn how to handle it.

Plus, you never know...maybe these traits will balance her out. I had a friend who was VERY unpopular with parents because as far as they knew, she was very bossy, pushy, attention-hogging, and a bit crass. However, she was a great match for me, because she pulled me out of my shy introverted shell... From the outside it certainly looked like she was taking advantage of my personality to bully me into doing things her way, but the reality was that I had a BLAST being with her, and I often saw sides of her that adults were never exposed to. She was pretty popular with kids our age, because we all knew she wasn't purposely being mean, and we took her attitude in the spirit it was meant. She had some family issues, and around adults she threw up a persona that was quite offputting... Part of it was showing off for their attention, and another part was hoping for their approval... But she went about it entirely wrong -as kids do- and the result was that she was wrongly labeled as a "delinquent in the making" "brat" "bully"... You get the idea. It was very hurtful to her when parents tried to keep their kids from playing with her, or refused to allow her to be invited to parties.

Our friendship is still going strong today. :)

Hmm, I guess I don't think either examples is very bad, definitely nothing to worry about bullying with. How much older then your 3 year old are they? I would still let them play but keep a little bit of an eye, that way you could coach your daughter if there are some issues.
You are reading way to into the toy thing. Maybe she went home was talking about it and her parents bought it for her. A little indulgent but what does that have to do with her not being a good friend.

S.,

I know you're new at being a mom and sort of new to mamapedia.

Your daughter is NOT being bullied. The "mean girl" is just that - a mean/rude girl.

Your example of "bullying" - throwing a fit because someone else was getting attention? NOT BULLYING...Breathe mama. You are going to give yourself a stroke if you keep seeing the worst in every situation.

This is called learning. This is called development. Your daughter is learning social skills. She is seeing how this other child is behaving and gauging whether or not if THAT is how she wants to behave and treat people...that she ran to get a band-aid is proof that you are doing something right. so STOP. BREATHE...

Your daughter is NOT perfect. I know you haven't stated that - but many parents fail to see the flaws in their child and say they are "perfect" - unless your daughter is mentally handicapped and will never really "grow up"?? She's NOT perfect and this will NOT hurt her self-esteem. She's THREE and learning how to get around socially. BACK OFF. BREATHE...

Yes. I've been known to buy my children $40 toys. What's it to you? That's NOT bullying nor is it wrong. It's NOT your money the other parent was spending - right??? So STOP stressing over it. That's a nunya thing - as in Nunya Business....

Let your daughter know you are there to help her navigate the pitfalls and high ropes of friendships...not everyone is a friend. She's learning mama...back off...

Let your daughter figure out who she wants to play with, don't keep tabs of who owns what toy (how do you even do that?!) and make sure your sweet three year old doesn't interfere with the older kids, she has no business playing with them anyway.

Amy J. gave you the best advice. I'll reiterate: Let it go! One of the best things I ever did for myself when my daughter was in second grade was decide to step back and stay out of her social affairs.

Girls are mean. Girls are catty. That's just girls. Is your DD school aged? I'm assuming so if other girls are coming and going without notifying you or DD that they're leaving. If she's in school, she should be able to find friends her own age to hang out with. That would be a good place to start.Try inviting some same-age girls from school over to play.

My DD is in 7th grade now. She has a nice little group of friends. She's not popular, but not unpopular-a good place to be IMHO. With the exception of one or two girls filtering in and out, the group has been pretty solid. They have their small tiffs, but have learned to work things out with each other. Your DD will figure it out too. Step back and let her do that.

Hi S.,

I personally am very sensitive to issues of bullying and exclusion. I give the topic a lot of "mental real estate" myself. But, from what you describe, I'm just not seeing it.

If I'm understanding correctly, your daughter is in first grade, right? And these girls are a year or two younger? So they're 4 or 5. They're preschoolers. Preschoolers don't have a clear sense of what's normative, what's expected, when, for example, another child falls and hurts herself. It's very normal, healthy, and appropriate for kids this age to sit back, confused, and wait for the grownups to take over. And some parents -- plenty of parents -- do buy their children $40 toys like it's nothing. That's not a practice I'd personally recommend -- in terms of overdoing special treats, in terms of family budgeting -- but it's not a sign of bullying in a *child.*

That said, if you just have a funny feeling about this kid, like, you can't put your finger on it, but she's just not giving off "empathy vibes," then by all means, work to get your daughter playdates with kids who seem more simpatico. Work on developing a social circle, of moms you really like and trust, with kids the same age. I personally put a lot into this. It doesn't always come naturally, since I'm ridiculously shy, but for my son, the results -- having a community, being accepted and cherished as part of a community -- have been like pure gold.

But I wouldn't cry bully. I wouldn't forbid contact with this group of tiny little girls. If you do that prematurely, you send your daughter the message that she's terribly fragile, that she faces strange, confusing danger at every turn, and that she's going to need rescuing after the slightest little thing. You don't want to go there. There'll be real problems. Life is full of real problems. Save your fire for when the real problem hits.

When a child has a dominant personality, it does not make that child a bully. It is a personality type just like the many personality types we all deal with on a daily basis. Children learn to deal with them as well.

I do think you are over analyzing things and reading way too much into the interaction of the children.

Our daughter is almost 20 and when she was growing up there was always a girl or 2 she hung out with that had different personalities and sometimes they didn't get along and would naturally take a break from each other.

My view is that is does not hurt children to be in a play group or friends with those who may be a little different (domineering, the leader, drama queen, etc). In fact, when they are together they are like rough stones and the more they interact with each other and learn how to interact with each other the smoother ALL the rough stones become. They all end up smoothed out from the process.

There will be many personalities your children have to learn to deal with as they grow and go through school. They learn through the smallest and largest amounts of adversity.

Communicate and support your children and don't worry about little the little girl who got a toy just like your daughter's. You don't know "why" she got that toy and I think it was more than likely NOT simply because your daughter got one. Yes, I have purchased my daughter $40+ toys because I wanted to at the time.

Good luck

Here is a really good article on the difference between Rude, Mean and Bullying. That might help you define the severity of this situation and if it's something your daughter can handle.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/signe-whitson/bullying_b_##...

Sorry if the link doesn't work you may have to copy/paste it into your browser.

Your daughter is going to continue to encounter these dominant female personality types (and their followers) throughout school. It is up to her to decide if she wants to hang with them or not. You don't want to choose her friends for her. You want her to evaluate and come to her own conclusions.

You see the manipulation and drama but all your daughter sees is other kids to play with. Your daughter is only 3. What you see is what she will learn in time. I went through something very similar with my daughter and a group of girls in our neighborhood. What I did was get involved with the group of kids by bringing out bubbles, Barbie pool with barbies, play-doh, paint, sidewalk chalk, balls, etc. We had a patio with a table and chairs so I would put out all kinds of arts & crafts. Next thing I knew all the kids were coming over and playing, even the "bully girl". It was all good. By the way, YOU will have a bigger impact on you daughter's self-esteem, not this girl :)

I think you have incredibly high expectations for social skills among young kids, so you are bound to be disappointed. You cannot protect your children from selfish kids with no manners - you can only give them the skills to deal with it.

You have a dominant girl in the neighborhood who isn't happy unless she is the center of attention. Your daughter (and the others) are not going to make this girl happy unless they cater to her needs. She gets her power from bossing the others around, leaving or getting them to leave when someone is in the bathroom, throwing a fit if someone else gets attention. It's not nice but honestly, these kids are, what? 5 and 7 years old? They have barely learned to spell their names and tie their shoes - they aren't going to behave at a high social level. If you find this difficult, you're in for a real problem when they hit teenage!

You have to stay out of it. If your daughter's feelings are hurt, then you can help her voice her anger and frustration: "How do you feel when Janie leaves when you are in the bathroom? What do you think of someone who won't help you when you need a bandaid? I'm glad you were nice enough to get a bandaid for her but she's not old enough or well-taught enough to be kind." Then you work up to "If she makes you angry and unhappy, what is it that makes you want to be friends with her?"

So you can, and must, let your daughter play with kids unless and until she can't take it anymore, or until she gets sucked into being mean. The dominant girl is mean, but she is not a bully. It's important to understand the difference.

Now, I know you think your 3 year old is delightful, and I'm sure she is. But it it entirely unrealistic to expect older kids to want to play Barbies and ponies no matter how nicely you think she acts. She does not play at the same level, she doesn't talk at the same level, she can't run around the same way -- so stop expecting them to include her all the time. Your daughters will have separate friends for the rest of their lives - there is a HUGE difference between 3 and 6 year olds or whatever they are. Besides, if the dominant girl is younger than your elder child, she's trying to "play up" in age, and does not want to be weighed down by a 3 year old. If the kids are in your house and yard, then they have to be kind to your 3 year old but that doesn't mean playing together. They can't take her stuff or push her around, but it's okay if the older girls play separately. Invite another 3 year old over for your little one. If the play is down the street, then the 3 year old stays home.

If the behavior gets really mean, then you step in and call a halt to it, and send the kids home. But that has to be based on language that is unacceptable in your home. You can't make them be nice - you can only decide whether they can stay or go home. But you have to be able to articulate what's not acceptable. "You're not being nice" is way too vague. These kids are little and they are still learning! They do NOT have social skills of adults yet.

So all you can do is empower your daughter to decide how she wants to be treated, how she'll allow herself to be treated, and to figure out why she so desperately wants to be liked and accepted by someone who just is either not nice, not well raised or too immature for her! Life is about choices, and kids can start making those early on. Just put it in terms she can understand and manage, and give her other opportunities to play with nice and fun kids who don't choose sides and turn on people.

S., I haven't read all the posts here, but I want to weigh in a bit about when the kids are at your house. You have the right to run things in your house the way you want to. I had a couple of kids in my house who were bound and determined to do this kind of thing, even in front of me. They did it because their parents allowed it in front of them. I did not allow it.

I would take that child aside and have a talk. "Can you tell me why you are bossing the other kids around?" "This is not your house. Who is your host?" "The rules in my house are that you share with others - you are in grade school, not in pre-school. I know you know how to share." "Everyone in this room gets a say in what activities to do, as long as I am okay with the activities. You do not get to demand that your friends only play what you want." "If you cannot follow my rules, you have to go home."

These are things I have said to kids at my house. You should too. I do not agree to just let things ride.

You can invite the other kids WITHOUT this girl. The dynamics will be very different without her.

You never know - you might be THE mother who teaches this child to think of others instead of just herself...

You're around enough to observe them. Why not play a little with them sometimes and casually talk to them? I don't mean to take charge and control their play. I mean that you sometimes say something like, "Oh, what are you playing today? That looks like fun, especially when you're taking turns." After your daughter tended to her friend's wound, then you could have asked the friend at next opportunity how she's doing. "I'll bet that that did NOT feel good. It's nice to have friends who want to help us. It's also nice to help our friends."

You can't dominate the conversation with this stuff, but I think that it's responsible parenting to toss those in now and then, and then see what they do with what they hear. If they never hear it, then you can't hold them responsible for knowing it. And then you check in with your daughter periodically.