Baptism Pt 2 / Judging

Maybe you were overly sensitive but all I have to say is bless you for taking this child in and I sincerely hope you get to legally adopt her.

"A little education to those of you"? Granted they are just words but that seems like a pretty snotty comment to make to a bunch of women who tried to help.

"Don't judge a book by its cover"? Isn't that what you just did?

I am having a hard time understanding this "question". It seems to me you presented a very unique situation and we 'tried' to pull things from our experience that may help. You did know we are all moms right? We are not priests/lawyers/social workers.....

So perhaps this is not the right forum for you if you expect us to read your mind, be all knowing and then sit back and accept your unwarranted judgment.

I don't understand why you are using the word "judgemental". I read several of your threads and no one was judgemental. They gave you their opinions based on the question. Not everyone is going to be correct in what they say because conservatorship isn't the same everywhere. Some people's definition of baptism is even different - some people only use the term "baptism" for being "dunked" (for lack of a better word) and christening for being "sprinkled".

You know the law where YOU live. If someone is "uninformed" about conservatorship in your state, all you need to do is offer a short blurb in your SWH and leave it at that. As far as the rest is concerned, people talked about their opinion of parenting vs having custody.

You are the second poster I've read today who is angry about the advice being given and has taken everyone to task over it. You say you thought this forum is to get advice and not for people to read something into the question. How is it that people are supposed to read your mind? (I asked this question in the other post too.) Plus, your situation is not black and white, or cut and dried. There are different ways that people look at this issue, and though it's very emotional for you, no one here is in your shoes. They are all looking at this from a distance.

Sometimes that distance can be good because you're getting a nonbiased point of view. Being so close to the issue is like being too close to the forest to see the trees. That distance can be not-so-good too because we can't see the day-to-day or possibly understand the issue with the courts the way you do.

I have to think that your anger with the attorneys and judge for taking the bio-mother's side in this is part of being angry with the mothers who don't automatically see you in the way that you want to be seen. That you are lashing out at us for it is not helpful to you at all, unless you just want someone to bark at.

When you ask a question, you will NOT just get a narrow answer. People see a lot of different sides of an issue. If you shoot down every suggestion and then tell people not to read anything into your post, you are really hamstringing yourself and closing your mind to advice that, though possibly painful, is also sometimes something you need to hear.

If you don't get help from asking a question, you aren't the only person in the world who doesn't. You could pay an attorney $350 an hour for advice and not like it either. Here, a group of MOTHERS' advice is free. We do what most people do - think about what you are saying (and have said in your other posts, if we remember or think to look) and then say what we think. People who have brains in their heads are going to bring up stuff that they think is pertinent, even if in fact, it isn't. And they are going to have differing opinions from you.

If you can't accept that, then yes, you're in the wrong forum.

Dawn

If you do not write clearly, then you cannot fault others for misunderstanding your situation.
If you wish to ask for advice on a public forum, expect to hear advice you might not want to hear.
If people take the time to answer your question, even if it is something you do not wish to hear, don't then belittle them in a follow-up tantrum.
If your questions seem misdirected and your respondents would rather address the elephant in the room, then you might want to listen and understand that your problem is bigger than just what your question addresses. This is not "judgment" - this is reality smacking you in the face.
If these simple concepts are too much and the answers you've gotten cause you to post a follow-up tantrum, then yes, you are, in fact, on the wrong forum.

I raise a five year old girl who is not my biological child. She has been with us since she was just about to turn three years old. It has been a hard and long road. I can relate to feelings of anger, possessiveness, and fear. I have a difficult time with the idea that I've got to parent with people who have been really terrible to this kid, and terrible to me. In fact, just now, we are in the middle of a custody case with her bio father and the whole thing feels insane.

Still, it is what it is. I am not her only mother. I am the person raising her...for now, and there may come a time that (even if I don't agree with it) I've got to pass her over to the care of her biological parents. When I began raising her, I knew this. I made the choice to love her, to become attached to her, and to commit myself to her. That involves sacrifices and some days (like today) feel very hard.

I've asked a lot of questions on this forum, pertaining to this situation. I've gotten a lot of support and some criticism. It's true, people do not know my situation beyond what I share with them - and that's not their fault - it's just the nature of things. Sure, I've been stung by responses before. Sometimes for good reason...but also sometimes because I have been stubborn and resolved in my own defensiveness. These have been good learning opportunities.

You should find a place that feels good for your heart, and I'm not sure if this forum is it. I do suggest that you open yourself up a bit. I read through your past post and I sense that your child - the child you share with other parents - may benefit from some self reflection. I know mine has. On the other hand, I don't know you or where your at and, at the end of the day, it's really up to you.

Best wishes,
E

To answer your question (because I think you asked one in here)...

Yes, you are on the wrong forum. This is NOT the group of ladies to hang around with if you don't want opinions and judgments.

I had to go back and read your other questions, and not just the ones pertaining to baptism. I've also thought hard about how to answer this.

I am a step-mom, slightly different, but in some respects the same boat.

My issue is this, in one post you want to know if you should ask the bio parents to pay for the classes, and in this post you feel it is your right to have her baptized as you see fit, but in neither post do you say what the bio-parents want.

They haven't lost their rights to their child, she has been placed with you (at least for now) to be raised/protected/loved, in a secure environment until the time the parents are ready to parent. While you are mom and dad in her eyes (as you should be). You are not mom and dad in the eyes of the law.

How unfair to the child to baptize her without the parents permission, then let's say, they do get her back and they do not practice or believe in the same religion as you. Talk about confusing to the little one.

You have 2 years, until extra fee's will need to be paid (which I don't understand, I would not participate in a religion where I had to pay to be a part of God's house). An awful lot can happen in 2 years, but your post makes it seem as if it is now or nothing. If it's not done now, right now, in the present, something horrible is going to befall this child.

Honestly, from this post and the other, her baptism seems more about you, then it really does about her. The truth is religion is her's to choose, her's, yours, and her bio-parents. At least until, in the eye's of the law, you are her legal parents and not just her guardian/conservator.

I just went back to your original post. Of course none of us knows your situation. But we do have opinions based on what you wrote there, and here.

This is my opinion: If the goal is to turn the little girl back over to her biological parents when they're old enough/responsible enough, then you are doing the her no favors if you baptize her in a religion that her biological parents won't continue to involve her in. The transition back to her parents will be hard enough without losing something you've told her is essential to her spiritual well being. If, however, you're going to continue to be her mom and dad forever and her bio parents will be just visitors, then by all means baptize her in whatever faith you follow.

Catholic churches don't charge a fee to belong; they ask for donations. CCE courses might cost money in some parishes, but not all. If you think her bio parents have the money and care that their daughter attends CCE, then ask them to pay. (of course - this raises the question... do you ask them to pay for other activities she does? birthday party gifts? new winter coat? If not, then it wouldn't be appropriate to ask them to pay). Also, ask yourself this. Are you choosing the baptize her because YOU want to or THEY want you to? If it's YOU... then YOU pay.

I've thought long and hard about this answer and I wasn't going to respond, but after thinking, I feel like I need to. Based on the information you've provided to us and some research on my own, I believe, you have, in the words of Texas law, Sole Managing Conservatorship of Sue. That being the case, you have a legal right to have the child baptized in the religion of your choice. (In Texas, it appears conservatorship = custody.) If this is not the case, you may not be able to legally have her baptized without her biological parents' consent and signature, as required by your Church.

(By the way ... I also believe you are, for all intents, her mother. But, as Ephie D. said, there are two mothers and I believe you need to explain this to Sue as soon as possible. It's part of who she is and she deserves to know. There are children's books about foster care that can help explain it. If you need some suggestions, let me know and I'll pull together a suggested list.)

All that said ... Texas law (at least based on my research) goes on to talk about the "best interest of the child". Unless the biological parents have chosen to legally terminate their parental rights, the court can determine it is in her best interest to be with them. I hope you will be able to adopt her, as that may, in fact, be in her best interest since she's been with you so long and has a firm attachment to you and your husband. The court, however, needs to see evidence to support that decision in order to involuntarily terminate their rights and grant you an adoption. In order to gather that evidence, the bio parents need to have the opportunity to build a relationship with the child. The child you love, adore, and have been raising will have to be dropped off with strangers to be able to show whether or not they can take care of her. I know this from experience. I am a foster parent who just finalized an adoption.

(Before you say again that it's not the same because we receive monetary help from the state for the child in our care, please know that is insulting ... I do not believe any stipend received from the state even begins to cover the costs of a child in our care. It's a mere pittance and we are not caring for these children for the money. I'm confident that's the case with the other foster parents on this site, as well as the other kinship care members of the site, like Gamma G.)

Our son was placed with us at 5 weeks from CPS. We couldn't get his hair cut without permission from the bio parents, let alone have him baptized, until an adoption was finalized. It was easy to give the bio parents some control over little things that didn't really matter (like a haircut). It took 21.5 months to get through the courts and an adoption finalized. It would have dragged on longer had bio mom not decided to voluntarily terminate her rights. You see, in Virginia, a child cannot be in care for greater than 1 year without a plan for permanency ... 18 months is the longest. If a parent determines voluntarily, they get another chance to parent. If the court terminates for them, they do not get a second chance ... CPS has the option to remove the child immediately ... I'm talking at birth, from the hospital.

Anytime you accept a child without parental rights terminated and adoption paperwork, you have to understand the child can be placed back with their biological parents. I hope (and hope and hope) that the lawyer who drew up the conservatorship explained this to you in detail before you signed the paperwork. I know this is potentially yet another loss for you ... and I know how hard this is. So do Ephie D. and Kate L. and others. We get it. We can be here for you if you need to vent, please vent away. If you want a wide variety of opinions, insight, and some conclusion-jumping based on the info you've offered (all things I appreciate), please post a question in the open forum. If you want a "softer touch", from some of us in similar, if not the same situations, feel free to pick a couple of us and send a PM.

An example from one of my own postings, as it turns out also related to baptism ... I asked about baptism clothes for my soon to be 2 year old (here's the link to my question ... http://www.mamapedia.com/questions/18052635116118933505). Some of the answers were difficult to read ... the white outfit really meant something to me. But, after reflection, I realized the single most important thing ... he was being baptized. I marched myself down to the mall and bought a cute outfit from The Children's Place. Without the frank, honest answers offered to me by the many wonderful people on this site, I may have remained stuck and instead of celebrating what was happening focused on how he was clothed. I know it's not the same as what you're going through right now, but sometimes, as Veronica P. mentions below, the slap in the face reality check causes some self reflection.

I hope you stay and I hope it all works out for the best. Feel free to PM me if you need to vent. Best wishes.

My confusion is this, are the bio parents trying to put their family back together and regain custody of the child now that they are mature enough to handle it, or are they just seeking occasional visitation? If they are seeking to regain custody then rather then focus on religious training at this point I would be focused on helping to prepare the child to make the transition as easy as possible. Missing a year of classes will not turn her away from god, nor will baptizing her force her to follow that religions path. It seems to me that with Bio parents reentering her life there are bigger issues to think about at the moment, like maybe finding her a family therapist that can help her adjust as she gets to know her bio parents and possibly prepares to rejoin them.

I went back and read your last 4 posts regarding this. This mom is now an adult and is trying to integrate her child's life back into her own. She is going to get this child back in the not too distant future.

That's what I was trying to say. You are hurting right now because you love her and think of her as yours. She may mentally be yours but she is legally and biologically her mothers child.

You need to prepare yourself for this eventuality. As sad as it is she will more than likely go to her mom in the next year or so. The mom has already worked her way up to unsupervised visits so the court is seeing the mom as a person who is not a threat to this child.

I am raising 2 of my grandchildren. One of them came to us at 3 days old and has never lived anywhere but with us. The older one went back and forth until we filed for guardianship of both of them.

I know I love these kids with my whole heart. BUT they are not my children and I KNOW they will some day go to live with their mom again. I think on that often. I will miss them terribly but their mom has the right to raise them even though she made mistakes. She is doing so well right now and I know she will eventually be able to take these 2 kids and raise them well. It's her God given right to have her own children and it's not my right to take them away unless she is a danger to them.

I think part of the reason you're getting a lot of flack about this is that you posted about the biological parents names on the baptism records.

Of course you are not her parents and her parents names should be on it. That's where a lot of the flack is coming from. If you had adopted her first then your names would go there. BUT she is not your legal child so your names cannot go there.

If the parents do not want her to be baptized I don't think you should do it. Take her to church and let her do all the classes she wants, etc...yes, that is appropriate.

If they don't care then do it but their names have to be on the record because they are the mom and the dad. That's all there is to it.

As for paying for any of her expenses I would ask the court about child support.

If you have until she is 7 to be baptised then WHY are you making a mountain out of this?

"...in our religon you have to be baptised by the age of 7 or else she'll have to take extra classes & I don't want that to happen to her."

If she can be a part of the religion of the house she is being raised in with out being baptised for the next two years while you, the bio parents and the state of Tx figure it out then I do not see the issue.

In addition, I read thru the posts and the only judgey (if that's a word) thing I saw there was that your church may be "off" regarding the fee issue. No one is judging you when they remind you that in the law's eyes you are not her mother, and this is apparently a legal issue just as much as a religious issue.

unless the paperwork specifically says the conservator "gets to choose the religion", most state laws require respect for the religious background of the girl's bio family.

btw - didn't see your first question - and ummmm, don't see a question here. Just venting about responses from the first i guess?
_____________________________________

Sorry - just found your question - (h/t Krista).

Yes, you are on the wrong forum.

no one can ever know the entirety of someone else's situation. that's the case with every single question asked here. everyone who squawks 'you can't say that because you don't know everything!!' is a twit.
we respond to what you post here. period. that's all the information we have, and yes, all the information we use to JUDGE the situation and offer the opinion YOU ASKED FOR.
and i didn't see one single response that suggested that you keep religion out of your daughter's life. what was suggested is that the parents should have input, and the church should not be charging for it.
if you want people to have more information, put it in your post. if you don't want opinions, don't ask questions.
khairete
S.

All I'm going to say is if you're not including the bio parents in the decision of religion and the baptism, then it's unrealistic of you to think they ought to pay any of the costs. This is a decision YOU have made based on what YOU think is best for the child. It is up to YOU to pay for it.

Like another poster said, the baptism is not going to ensure that she follows your religion throughout her life. My GOD loves all people, baptized or not so the GOD I worship would welcome her into his fold regardless of what you and/or her bio parents do.

Do what you think is right and what will help you sleep at night. This decision will affect you more than anyone else. She and her bio parents will do what THEY think is right when the time comes.

What religion are the parents? Do they object to the baptism? During the holocaust the church took in some Jewish children (good) and forcibly converted them to and raised them Catholic (horrifying beyond belief). They knew the biologic parents weren't coming back - they went to the death camps. And what they did was 100% WRONG. Are you raising this little girl in the same faith as her parents but you are simply more observant? Or do her parents observe a different religion and do NOT want her baptized. It makes a huge difference in what you should or should not do. Whether or not you legally can.

Here's my take on all this.... a little religion won't hurt anyone.. The child can always decide later on if she wants to continue with it or not.. My son has been attending Catholic School since Kinder.. up until now, he was all for it and his favorite class was religion. However, nowadays, he tells me he is and Atheist.. Ok, so I go along with it... Although, he still attends Catholic School.. but we do that in part, because where I live, it is a better education.. and I not talking about the religious aspect , but more so... academics..

I also believe that since you are her guardian at this time and being as the parents have been absentee for so long... then yeah. you have some rights.. why not... As a former foster kid and one who has known so many others with absentee parents, let me just say... WE welcome a parent(s) who actually CARE about our well-being and who want to do the best for us.. IF at this time, you feel CCE is the best, then cool.. go for it..

Again, it can't hurt... My son is doing just fine... whether he's a Catholic or self-proclaimed Atheist :)

If you are the legal guardian,
then you can do this whether the parents consent or not.
It's my understanding that a conservator and a guardian are different things.

What is a Conservator?
A person who is appointed by the court to manage the property of a minor or incapacitated person.

What is a Guardian?
The parent of a minor or someone who has been appointed by the court to be responsible for the personal care of an individual.

So when you say it's the type of conservatorship you have that makes you her guardian - I guess that makes a baptism ok.

According to the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

There is a Catholic Answers forum.
It might be a good place for you to ask some questions.

http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1

Well, when you ask a question to some hundred or more anonymous mamas, you have to be prepared for a lot of different answers, and some of them will be more reactions than anything else! It's the nature of the beast, I guess. :^)

If I were in your position, I would want the child living in our home to learn about God and come to love Him, whatever the future might hold.

This is a forum for opinions.
My opinion is that you need to talk to the bio parents and get their permission and then have them sign for their daughter. According to what you've written, you do not have the legal right to chose her religion. Talk to them and get their permission. If they refuse, then find a church that will allow her to be involved without being baptized.
I'm Lutheran, but we have a lot of children from other denominations who regularly attend and participate in our Wednesday night program, youth group, youth activities and service programs. There is no requirement of baptism. For first communion and confirmation, yes that is required, but to learn about God no.

I am behind the power curve here...

I am confused by your post. People on here can only go off what is given to them, their personal experience and knowledge. And to top it off - it's the written word. If you do not like what someone is saying - then you will read is a judgmental, snotty or nasty. Take a deep breath. You won't always get the answers you WANT to hear.

Do you want her biological parents to pay for her CCE classes?

Since her biological parents are TRYING to participate in her life - what do THEY want? yes, I see that you state they don't know what they want...however...they should be able to form some type of opinion.

Do they plan on taking her back into their lives? It would appear so if they are having unsupervised visits with her.

I guess the most important question is - what does SHE want? Yes, she's a child, but at 5, they do have some input on what is going on in their lives.

While I commend you for taking part in this child's life and working towards dedicating her to God (which is a GREAT thing!), her biological parents need to be involved as well in this decision. If they cannot make a decision, then I would sit down and tell them your reasons for wanting and doing this and get their support on it. You may end up helping them in growing up, accepting responsibility and helping make them better people.

Good luck!

Are you Catholic?
Are you an actual standing member to a Catholic Church?
With the possibility that she could have her biological parents in her lif, what are they thinking about this?

I was raised Catholic.
We were taught, this is not a "drive through religion" and not a "Buffet Faith". You do not get to pick and choose from the beliefs. You do not drive through only when you are in need. Instead their faith is to be totally embraced and to live by their doctrine.

I am not getting the feeling this is what you do.. So I am not sure That this child in your care, should be baptized into this religion..

I suggest you all become really active in a church family.. and make she is understanding what it is all about, that just having a ceremony , really more for you, than for this child.

She needs total stability. She is old enough to understand what religion is, to hear the stories, the expectations, but also she needs to be able to always depend that whatever religion she is put into at this point, that she will have the opportunity to be a part of it and it be her choice

Would you consider allowing her to hold off? Let her attend s\Sunday school. Let the Bible stories be a part of hr bedtime routine.

I think it is wonderful that you want to make sue her soul blessed, but I think she really needs to understand and lead the way on this. Speak with the Priest about how they can do the blessing ntil she is baptized and is actually a part of this choice.

Can you ask the biological parents to be a part of the day? Can you do this through the social worker? It seems to me like eventually, these parents might be back in the picture. Can you have them share in this?

If the child is going to be "theirs" in a matter of years, maybe you should let them decide on this aspect of her life. But in the meantime, it might just be more important for you to build a foundation of faith rather than going through with the formality of it all.

Good luck!

I think what you are doing is wonderful and I would take her as soon as you want her to begin! God bless you-you ARE doing the right thing.

who would call two 14 year old children who have a baby parents?

i did just respond to your other post and i just would like to say again that you may have the paperwork to pick whatever religion you want but if the bio parents are involved and there may still be a chance she goes back to them then they really need to be involved in this decision.
She is almost five so you have some time before she turns 7, i personally think you have time to see if this religion is a good fit for everyone.
i am not sure if you are catholic, i apologize if you said you were, but the catholic church i belong to and all my other ones have never charged to be there. that is new to me.
lastly i honestly dont think people are judging, i believe they are giving you the best answers they can with what they know of the situation.
good luck to you and many blessings

Dear L.,

I am going to answer you somewhat differently because I see a lot of Catholic bashing in your responses.

I am not answering the legal question as to whether you can legally make religious decisions for your child. I am assuming that you have someone to speak to who can help you regarding the legal aspects. I hope that you can find it in your soul to do the right thing regarding your legal situation.

I am going to answer the Catholic part of it...I am Catholic and have lots of experience in working with both Catholics and non-Catholics alike in navigating the Church.

First, are you or your husband Catholic? IF not, than you would have a very hard time going forward - you would likely need to enroll in an RCIA program and convert before having your child baptized.

If so, are you registered in a parish? If so, than please go to that parish, explain your situation and find out about the mandantory baptism classes. IF not, you need to register in a parish and ask about baptism preparation. It typically involves either an individual meeting with a priest or deacon or attending a 1-2 hour class. They simply make sure you understand the request for the sacrament of baptism and then tell you what to expect at the actual ceremony.

The Catholic rules on CCD for children is that they need to attend 2 years of religious education classes before receiving first reconciliation (used to be called confession) and first communion. That should be close to first and second grade in school. If she isn't 5 yet, than she is probably not in kindergarten so you have lots of time here...

Regarding cost, there was a small cost for baptism for my first son (I think it was like $30 to cover his candle, and other items) but if you had a hardship there was no fee.

There is a cost to CCD virtually everywhere, anywhere from a nominal amount to cover the textbook to a much larger amount where they pay teachers (like $200 per year). The cost at my church is $150 but if you can't afford it they will waive the fee.

Good luck! C.

I saw your previous post, first kudos to you for taking this child in and raising her as your own. second, I feel that god and a church community is essential in raising children in this crazy world we're living in so kudos on that also:) I see that you are in the Richmond, TX area as well as I. I grew up Catholic also, so I know all about the rules and guidelines. etc. etc.. have you heard of Grace Fellowship on Mason Road, this church changed our lives! SERIOUSLY! check it out. You can def have her baptized ANYTIME! I wish you all the best in whatever you decide:)

PS, by no means am i trying to convert you to Methodism, i still considered myself to be a Catholic;)