At the End of My Rope

Rebecca, Reinforce and acknowledge the good behavior and ignore the negative behavior. She knows she's getting to you and therefore she's "winning". It may be difficult but as long as she knows what makes you upset she will continue. If she chooses to live in filth, let her. Tell her she can't attract bugs and rodents by leaving food around etc. but that her room is her responsibility. Also, are you comparing her to her older sister. You label her as extremely responsible. There's nothing as maddening as being compared to a sibling, especially in a negative manner. Good luck.

Let me suggest a book tht has re defined my parenting techniques, Parenting with Love and Logic. The only thing you can change is you, and how you respond and what you do. Get the Lifesaver CD pack from loveandlogic.com and start listening! It is worth every penny! Read the book too! sign up for the email messages! Good Luck and put some fun back into parenting!

L.
mother of (4) ages 12,10,7,4
preschool teacher of 17!

You sound so stressed, I feel bad.
Before you do anything I would contact her pediatrician about all of the issues you are having with her and set up an appointment where she will not be with you. Go and speak with him/her and get an opinion if this is really laziness or if there is something going on, like an ADD or something else.
As far as the bedwetting goes, my 8 year old wet the bed probably about three times a week up until about six months ago. It just kind of stopped out of nowhere. We were really close to going to the doctor about it and it kind of just stopped on it's own.
As far as her calling you stupid...somebody mentioned that she must be hearing it somewhere. Of course she is hearing it somewhere, what 8-year old hasn't?? The important part is that it does not give her the right to say it to her MOTHER!! My kids hear plenty at school and at baseball etc...etc...I have never used this as an excuse to let them get away with saying it themselves. They are all going to hear things, but at 8, she is way past the age of knowing not to repeat it, especially to her mom! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Gloria's idea from Dr. Phil about stripping her room. Of course this would be a nightmare to do. What mom wants to deal with that?? BUT, I think it would work so well. You have to really get it across to her that you are serious about ending this behavior. If you do it, keep calm as can be and you can let her scream as much as she wants. Just say, "sorry hun, you have to show me that you are old enough to have these things." Just explain to her how disrespectful she has been and that you are not going to put up with it anymore.
One more thing...You are not a failure!!! I have four kids and they are ALL different! Some kids are just going to challenge us more than others! I really hope this helps. Good luck! Keep us all posted :)

Hi R.,

Sounds like a very frustrating situation! in both situations, if I understand your description correctly, it sounds like negative reinforcement is not working. I would agree with the other recommendation-see if there is a medical reason for why she is having night time accidents-if so punishing her for it by making her wash the sheets won't help.

In reading your explanations I heard she was messing up and doing things to "your" house. You might try an approach that would make her feel 1) that she is helping clean up "her" house or the "family's" house and 2) she is involved in a solution to the problem.

Try sitting her down for a talk, explain your observations and ask her help in coming up with a solution. Kids are much more motivated if they feel involved vs. just told what to do. Booggies on the wall-you might have her help pick out kleenex or a fun kleenex holder to keep in her room. There are some "funky" to-go kleenex packs out there that might make using them more cool:)

Next try a reward system, what is something she wants or is interested in? Use that as a reward that she can earn (marble jar, beads ect.) Decide how many needed to earn reward.

Start simple with 2 or 3 big things, give lots of praise for efforts and accomplishments she does on her own.

There may be other issues that are coming out as "laziness". Try to get her to open up about what is going on with herself and see what you find out.

It is a challenging situation, hang in there and let us know how things are going!!

I'm sorry that nothing seems to be working. Have you contacted the school system? Does she act like this at school or just for you? Does she act like this with your family or with babysitters? That may give you a little insight to see if this is normal behavior or perhaps attention getting behavior. If she is okay at school then I would work on setting consequenses to her behavior. I would give her small jobs to see if she can help out. A chart with some regular chores, stickers or rewards for helping out. If this is more than just acting out, then I would ask the school if there is some kind of free help out there or evaluations. You may need to find new and different parenting techniques for her. Some things work well with some kids, others do not. It doesn't mean you are a bad parent, if just means that some techniques may be better for certain children. Different kids need different methods. I would talk to your pediatrian about a referral to a good therapist of Psychiatrist. I would also find out if there is something medically wrong with her. Seek out all of the answers you can. If you don't get help from one area, go somewhere else. Perhaps she isn't lazy, perhaps she just is ADD and can't get organized and she is overwhelmed. Some kids are just slobs but need to learn how to clean up. One thing at a time, charts, schedules etc. She may need help from an occupational therapist. Etc. She sounds like she needs an evalation and some therapy or counseling so that you can get the answers you are looking for. I wish you the best of luck.

I can't believe you'd punish her for wetting the bed!!!
My pediatrician says that at this age, it's perfectly normal for some children to wet the bed. Their bodies have grown but their bladders have not.
This is the exact reason why they make overnight pants for children this size!! It's normal for some children.
This is probably not something that she has any control over.
Punishing her is only going to create more anxiety and make the problem much worse as well as affect her sleep.
Please consult with your daughter's pediatrician. Relax so she doesn't develop an anxiety problem!! And for goodness sake buy her some big kid overnight pants so she can stop feeling guilty about this!
My advice regarding the messy behaviors...
Refuse to do any laundry that is not in the hamper.
Pretty soon she'll run out of clean clothes to wear and she'll learn pretty quickly.
Don't lose your temper, don't get upset. Just post this rule somewhere obvious and stick to it.
Good luck,
S.

I had a son who was very simular in behavior. I punished him in every way i could think including spanking. I tried counseling to no avail. He shared a room with his brother who was just the obset. I finally gave(i gave up) him his own room and let him do as he pleased in his room but the door stayed closed and i never went in to clean. So sending him to his room for punishment was a real punishment in more ways then one. When he was with the family he had to be resonablly neat and behave or leave. He did his own laundry and kept his room the way he wanted. When I stopped struggling and fighting with him his behavior changed. He grew older and peer pressure had its impact. Now as an adult he has a family and with both working he does most of the house work. And I just smile.

Hi R.,

I would be equally frustrated. I'd recommend that you start with her doctor. There might be a medical explanation as to why she's still wetting the bed because it is unusual for her to still be having this problem - especially if it's happening every night. And if you mention it to the doctor and the first reaction you get is that "she'll just grow out of it", then ask anyway what they could easily test for just to rule out. (And explain to your daughter that you want to get her some help because you know this must be hurting her as much as it is you.)

As far as the other issues...some of it is to some degree normal but it also sounds like she's acting out (and maybe not even consciously). It's probably quite obvious to her that the bedwettting is very upsetting to you, she knows that she's letting you down, she's embarrassing herself and she probably feels awful about it but can't stop. I'm guessing that she may have no desire to please you because she's angry with you (and maybe hurt) because she's frustrated with the situation too. Maybe if you and she try to reconnect some how you'll be more in tune to one another and she'll be more responsive to you in those other areas you mentioned.

You sound like a very caring mother who's understandably at your wit's end with this situation. Don't feel like a failure because that can only be true if you give up. You just have to change tactics. I've found that my daughter is as emotional as I am (and she's only 5). What gets the best results for us is for me to sit and talk with her for a minute after she's been punished. I remind her that I still love her and a few other comments to explain my expectations and let her have her turn to say what she needs to say (including apologizing) and we end with a hug. I think that your daughter may start to show more care about your feelings if she thinks that you care about hers (and I'm certaintly not saying that you don't but she still may be misunderstanding you). One last suggestion would be that if you can get her to help you out a bit, maybe as a reward you could start doing things together (because now you have the time to play a board game with her or take her to the store because you don't have to spend all your time being her maid).

Good luck to you - don't give up. I truly hope you find a solution that works for you!

I think your daughter is just fulfilling the role she is comfortable in - she's the 'difficult' daughter and she's just doing what she is good at - making mm upset. Find and emphasize something positive that she does well, and focus on that for the time being. Talk to her about how good it makes you feel when she does X and how much easier it is to be with her when she's doing X. Positive reinforcement should drive her to do more good things to get your attention than bad things. Help her become the daughter who is good at X rather than the daughter who is messy and wets her bed. She just wants to be unique and special - but make her be it in a GOOD way!

Hi R., first of all, sorry for your understandable frustrations! Now, I don't pretend to, know it all, and maybe you already realize where this has to go and are looking for support...first, go to her pedi, talking to the doc alone first, if you can about what's going on, then with your dau; 2nd as already mentioned, perhaps a therapist? Maybe something is happening at school (bullying, peer pressure, growing up and not being your baby), that she simply isn't able to talk to you about...[does your older dau, know anything??] Obviously, she's capable, if she's taking care of her wet bedding, and boogers, after the fact. I believe you mentioned this happened after moving, maybe she's hoping the longer she keeps it up, you'll go back "home"?
Don't know, but hope I gave you some places to look at! Good luck and please let us know how it goes!!! (I have an almost 9 y/o dau that I affectionately call my 'drama queen', but I only have the one.) W. Huff

I would bring the bed wetting issue up with a doctor. At 8 she should be able to control her bladder and if she can't there's something medically wrong there. It doesn't sound to me like she'd be doing it to be bad. There's too much bad stigma with being a bed wetter at that age. No sleepovers if you wet the bed.

As far as the other stuff my 7 year old throws her clean clothes on the floor too. No matter how many times I tell her not to she still does it. Wiping boogers and stuff is pretty gross. I don't have too much suggestion for her laziness. You might just have to experiment with the right punishment. Oddly enough this doesn't sound like her being lazy per se. I mean if she ends up having to clean the just wiped boogers off the walls then you would think that it would click with her if I don't get up and throw this in the garbage it's going to mean more work for me because I'll have to clean the walls. Sounds to me like she's seeing what she can get away with. So you need to figure out what's important to her and take that away until she can keep her things picked up and not wipe boogers on the wall.

After reading your post - my heart broke for you daughter. Do me a favor and re-read what you wrote again. Then one more time out loud. Sounds to me like she is crying out for attention and even though it's negative attention it's still attention. Your probably so frustrated that you don't even realize that she's only 8. The fact that you could go on and on leads me to believe that you do go on and on to her. Your in a vicous power struggle and the more you berate her the worse her behavior will become. She calls you stupid? I have to wonder where she learned that. Think about if someone told you all the time that you were lazy and irresponsible wouldn't you think to yourself ... well the hell with them. Why don't you do the exact opposite of what you are doing. Ignore the bad behavior - pretend to not even see it. If she doesn't get a rise out of you at all - she will probably stop fairly quickly. Be more loving to her and you will get a more loving child that wants to please you in return.

Hi R. -

I can only give you some advise on the bedwetting, have you tried going to a pediatric chiropractor? My coworkers son who was 8 was still wetting the bed 5 out of 7 nights, and being recommended by another health care worker that was trying to help him with his ADHD, she took him to a chiropractor. After 2 weeks of going to the chiropractor, he had stopped wetting the bed. He will still occassionally have an accident (like one in 3 months), but nothing like he had before.

It's worth a try!!
Good Luck.
L.

Hi R.,

First of all your daughters are each unique personalities. What works for one will not necessarily work for the other. They will each have their strenths and weaknesses so try really hard to find your youngest's strengths and capitalize on those.

Assuming she has no major mental health issues, some of the other behaviors may be her acting out her frustration over your frustration about her bedwetting.

As a former bedwetter, I can attest, she has no control over her bedwetting. Making her wash her own bedding is blaming her for a condition that I am sure she wishes would go away more than you do. She really does need your support.

Finding a way to easily strip the bed and wash and remake will be imperative to reducing your frustration. There are special mattress pads that will hold a significant amount of urine that lay over the bed and can be removed easily. Please no pull ups; they are for babies and your daughter is a big girl.

I did find that I peed the bed more frequently when the tempature dropped alot at night. I don't know why it just seemed to make me pee!

Eventually your daughter will outgrow this but on her time. At this point I would impart that little part of the serenity prayer and "accept the things I cannot change". Assume she will wet the bed indefinately and set up a plan to deal with it. The more attention you give to this, the more anxiety you give your daughter and the more behavior issues you will see. Ultimately, you may alienate your youngest and find yourself growing closer to the older child further setting yourself up for issues in adolescence.

Try to empathize with your youngest and enlist her thoughts on how to deal with this. Be prepared for tears when you finally show empathy instead of frustration she may let the dam burst!

I continued to wet the bed occasionally until age 12. I am now 48 and haven't wet the bed for years though I do get up alot a night now! lol

Best Wishes and God Bless
J. L.

Hi,
I am sorry for your frustrations. I too agree that the place to begin should be your pediatrician. You need to sit and discuss with him/her what you've just confided here.
If you have already then your next step should be to seek out a child therapist. There may be some underlying emotional, if physical has been ruled out, issues if your child continues to wet her bed at 8yrs of age, along with wiping her nose on the wall.
As far as the clothing and throwing trash etc on the floor, has she been taught or set up with a reward system for keeping her things neat? Most children could care less how messy their rooms are (take it from me a mother of 3 teens who sleep in what look like battle zones!)
Good luck to you!

Regarding the bed peeing - I strongly suggest you try an alarm system that attaches to the pull-up/whatever, and sounds off as soon as there is moisture. Our son had nighttime issues as well, which I feel confident was due to him sleeping like a rock. When the little guy sleeps, almost NOTHING can wake him up. the alarm really worked for us - did take some time, but helped teach his body to understand/hear the messages that were being sent to his brain that he needed to get up and pee. Email me if you want more info.

Regarding the behavior, I would really recommend the 1,2,3 magic concept. The 2 rules are that there is no emotion involved and no discussion. I will count when behavior is not acceptable or attitude is not acceptable. Sometimes counting automatically goes to 3 if behavior merits it. If counted out, goes to room for # of minutes of age (ie 8 min for your 8 yo). No discussion/debating/negotiating,etc. and no yelling/agitation/etc. on behalf of parent. I must say that I feel it has made a difference for me and my son, but my husband isn't so successful (I think it's because he is very inconsistent at showing emotion and discussing).

Hope these ideas help. Feel free to email if I can be of any help.

Hi R.,

Your letter touched me because I could have written it from the child's point of view. I hate the words lazy and selfish. My mother had labels for all four of her kids and seemed to always think about us by those labels. We were all smart, but my older brother was smartest, I was pretty, but lazy, my sister was plain, a tomboy, and my younger brother frail and cute.

Our mother was the drama queen. Everything was all about her. She acted like we intentionally hurt her when there was an accident, like when my brother broke his arm falling out of the tree in the backyard or my sister cut her knee crawling under the house.

She was pretty awful to me...endlessly repeating over and over what I had done wrong, telling everyone my "transgressions." I felt humiliated and hated my mother and felt guilty because I hated her. Of course, I loved her -- that's why she could hurt me so badly.

I recently read Prisoners of Childhood by Alice Miller. This classic text explained that women who were not treated fairly and respectfully as children pass down their frustration and anger to their kids. I know that my mother was a talented artist, who took drawing lessons and also painted some beautiful crafts. But in those days, the man ruled the home, and for some reason, my dad didn't want her to take lessons. My mother quit her classes, but was unfulfilled through motherhood.

When my mother was in her 50s, she seemed to realize how she had influenced us, and was kinder and nicer to me. We had a good relationship when she passed away at 68.

(Recently, my doctor suggested that I have ADHD -- it helps a lot of know that and explains my energy when I was a kid--and now. I feel compassion for my mother now. I also have restless leg syndrome and take mirapex each night. It works really well and I don't have to get up at all at night. Restless leg is hereditary.)

HI,

I think I responded to your last post. I am going to suggest the same thing again; you should take her to see a therapist of some kind. Her elementary school likely has a Psychologist and or Social Worker. I am a Social Worker and that is both my personal and professional suggestion. Boogers on the wall is not laziness - it is behavioral.

good luck!

Hi R.,
My friend's 8 year old daughter has a medical condition where she's still wets the bed. She even bought a device that you put inside the underpants, and it alarms with a sound loud enough to at least wake the sleeping child in the middle of the night, just when she starts to pee.. to try and awake her to go to the bathroom. I'm assuming you've spoken to your pediatrician? My (almost)6 year old, wears a pull-up to bed everynight because she was peeing.. it's gotten a lot better now thank goodness, but it was a condition that she had no control over. I'm wondering if your anger and frustration over this (specifically) may be contributing to your daughters negative feelings.. (ie: muttering stupid..) She may be frustrated with herself.. In terms of the laziness.. I say just start taking away benefits.. no after school activities, or no toy that she may love.. or no tv.. etc.. Try not to yell or get angry, just start taking away benefits, if she doesn't do her certain cleaning chores. Show disappointment, not anger..
I know, a lot easier said than done! Best of luck to you!
L.

I know a 27 year old who urinated in his bed until he was 16. FINALLY a doctor recommended a neurologist and they put him on a medication that cured it.

I imagine it must be difficult and embarrassing for your daughter too! I hope that the Dr. can help.

As far as the other stuff- I don't know what to say except to consider consequences for negative behavior. Also do you have any concerns for depression. Laziness is usually a term equals lack of interest in things including self-care. Depression takes a toll on everything as you may or may not know.

Good luck to you and your family.

Sorry to hear you are so stressed out, R.! I agree with the others that you should talk to the pediatrician about the bed-wetting. There very well may be a physical reason for it. I have read that there is also a big emotional connection to it- and making a big deal about it happening may only be making her feel worse about it and about herself. You are heading in the right direction seeking help here, but the pediatrician can help more.

As for the mess, it sounds like she is getting a lot of attention from you when she makes messes. Even if it is negative attention, it is still attention. Someone mentioned a reward system and that is a good idea. You need to turn it all around to a positive for you and her.

As I was reading your post, there was an ad on my page for www.Handipoints.com and that is what I was going to suggest! My sister has used it with her kids and says it's great. I like it because it gives them a bit of control over their choices- taking responsiblity for their actions and results- but you still get to have input and a bit of control, too. Check it out!

Good luck and hang in there! And do something for yourself today, you deserve it!!!

First, let me say sorry.. it has got to be frustrating. Have you tried a behavior chart? Something as simple as a grid for each night? If she gets up at night to go, she immediatly gets something for her chart. ( or to start, you can meet her in the bathroom and give her a reward) Everyone has their "carrot" that they will work for, just find what really motivates her and make her work for it. We had to use one for my 7 year old to learn to be more responsible around the house. It has 6 rows of shores and then columns for days of the week. She gets a money stamp for each day she does all her chores. Then on Saturday, she counts up how much she earned that week. But.. money is very motivating for my daughter.. you'll have to find what makes yours tick and use it for all it's worth. Hope this helps.. p.s. when i say reward, i don't mean anything all that big, high fives, kisses, hugs, M & M's etc....

Hi, I'm sorry you have to put up with this from your daughter. I don't know about the peeing in bed, but for the other stuff, I think she is either doing it for attention, or maybe she is in a depressed state? I know if I am depressed, I myself will just THROW a tissue somewhere and say, "oh, who cares, I will pick it up later." So maybe you should get her to talk with a therapist. OR, if it's just for attention and being ornery, I remember on Dr. Phil that he told the parents of some kid who was acting up to just say to the kid, "OK, I've had it. Your room is being STRIPPED. You can't take care of it, you can't take care of things, so the only thing you will have in your room is your mattress and a pillow and blanket. When I see your attitude change, you will slowly get things replaced in your room." And Dr. Phil meant it - take EVERYTHING out and give it back when they do things to deserve it. So you can take out all of her clothes and just hand her one outfit at a time or something. Maybe you can check on his website, he might still have some tips there. Well, good luck!

Hi R.,
Some advice for the bed-wetting, I know for a fact that several children over 5 with this problem have had complete turn-arounds with chiropractic care. You may want to find someone local or ask friends and family for a good recommendation.
As for her laziness and attitude, I have no idea how to help there! It's awful that she is that disrespectful and calling you names is completely inappropriate. I wish I could give you some advice for this but I just don't know what more I would do other than taking things away and making her clean up for herself:-(
Good luck,
E. K.

Hi R.,
I feel for you as a mother (I have 2 girls and a boy) and I feel for your daughter too.
I was a bed wetter until about 8.
My mum used to get very frustrated and exasperated with me and I would wash my own bedding if it got wet. I felt ashamed of my failure to stay dry. My mum tried everything, but in the end it was my own body caught up and I learned how to stop going while asleep. I think my mum must have given up on me ever getting it....(maybe thats why I did).
I don't have answers but I do wish my mum was more understanding sometimes and did not blame me for something I felt I had no control over.
I find my kids respond best (to my requests) if I give lots of praise and genuine positive comments. If you don't feel you can deal with this I hope you can seek support outside the family, you sound like you need a break too.
good luck!

R.,

I would speak to your daughter's doctor about the bed wetting. I have a urologist as a cousin and he told us they have a saying - if I remember it correctly it goes like this. 10% of 5 year olds wet the bed. 5% of 10 year olds wet the bed. 1% of 15 year olds wet the bed. I don't know if this info helps but I think it basically is saying they can't help it but again I would speak to your daughter's doctor.

Also mention the rest of the stuff and see if the behaviour is connected. Like you put it she is lazy or if it's lack of caring or something else.

Good luck,
L. M

Yes, you do need Nanny 911, but before you go there, please contact the child's pediatrician and have a heart-to-heart talk. There can be a physical reason why your child is having some problems with bed wetting. If not, you both need some help getting through this emotionally. Good for you for recognizing this! The pedi is the place to start!

My first two daughters are just like yours - the older one is uber responsible and the younger one is not and is also not organized. Once I stopped comparing the two in my head (never out loud), I started to appreciate the special gifts that my younger daughter did offer. I started giving her extra praise and it really made a difference in her self esteem. I am finding out that she is wired differently than my older daughter and neg. reinforcement doesn't work. AS for the bedwetting - talk to your pedi about a bed alarm. It worked for my niece - she was about that age when they put in the bed alarm and it worked. Also, you need to help your daughter get organized - everything seems to be overwhelming her - especially when it's hard to compete with a competent older sister. She may be mildy ADD and there are so many tools now to help her focus. And finally, check out celebratecalm.com. It's got great tools, emails, etc for kids who are wired differently.
Good luck!

Hi R.,
I do not have any advice to give you other then talk w/ your daughters pedi or try a therapist (her pedi might be able to recommend one).

Also, I wanted to comment on a response you recently recieved from a Barbara....it seems like to me she is almost pointing the finger at you because you are venting your frustrations about your daughter here on this post - which is healthy and a much better option then venting on your daughter - I don't believe you are personnaly at fault since you mention you're older daughter as being well behaved. I'd talk to the pedi and see what other options they can offer.

Hang in there

R.,

It is time to talk to your pediatrician. There is a program that they can refer you to that is only by prescription. The program starts with a in home visit by a licensed counselor. Then they work with you, your child and your pediatrician. The first thing they do is give your child a bed wetter alarm clock. It is a clock attached to a 'blanket' that is placed under her when she sleeps. What happens is when she wets the bed, it wakes her up. She will be responsible for getting up, using the bathroom right then and there, and cleaning her bed before she can go back to sleep. The clock keeps a record of when she wakes up every night. Soon, she will have the clock going off before she usually wets the bed. Her pediatrician and the counselor will work together to see if she needs a night time med. to control the peeing or if it a psychological issue. Some children control their bowels extremely well during the day, but at night they relax and have no control because of the pressure they exerted all day controlling themselves. You can read more about programs like the one I mentioned at http://www.hargitthousefoundation.com/ . I hope that this helps. I know how frustrating this can be for you!