Alcohol at Church Functions

I don't know that there is a simple answer to this. I understand your concerns - some people are prone to addiction, do we really want our kids to see this. But there are many, many, many adults who can, in fact, enjoy a drink or two with no problems. And I'm not sure it's wise to completely shelter our children from alcohol, thereby making it taboo and all that more enticing.

It would help to have more information. How old is your son? How does he know the man was intoxicated? What does your husband say happened?

I actually don't think there should be alcohol at youth events (not because it's a church event, but because it's a youth event), but that's mostly because I think it's important for young people to know that you can have lots of fun without alcohol. Often times high school and college students given the impression that the only way to have fun is to drink, and it's great when we can show them other examples.

I used to work in college, campus ministry, and I had a rule for myself that I didn't drink in front of underage students. If a group was going out to dinner, I did not drink unless everyone there was of age. I just really wanted to send the message that I could have fun with them without drinking.

Now that I'm a parent, I know how nice it is to have a beer or a glass of wine at the end of a long day or long week. My kids have seen me do this several times. I actually believe it's important for them to see me drinking responsibly and know that alcohol doesn't have to be a big deal.

So a drunken church member flipped out and yelled at your son for knocking over his beer? Inappropriate stories were being told around the kids? What did your husband do?

"Alcohol at church functions" is not the same as people getting loaded. If the trip really devolved into the the drunken scene you describe I suggest you find another church. The people I spend time with can both drink and act appropriately.

My thoughts are, how did your husband handle this? Did he use this as a teaching opportunity? Or are you posting here just looking to get people upset right along with you?
Not trying to be snarky, REALLY, but as a former scout leader (boys and girls both) I will tell you that we absolutely passed some wine around the fire at the end of the day. Sure it was technically not "allowed" but have you ever taken a large group of children and parents camping???

I think it was rude of the man to yell at your son (and that is assuming your son's version of events is accurate, but I would hope you would ask your husband what he saw), but I do not think that means the men were wrong for enjoying a couple of beers around the camp fire. I am not sure how old the kids at the camp out were, but most would consider stories around the camp fire as a wonderful way to bond, even if some of the stories might be frowned upon by an over protective mom. Kids get exposed to life, that is part of what helps them grow up.

I just read your "so what happened" and it appears you left out a huge part of the story. The issue for the man was not the beer, it was the guitar, some of which are very expensive. It is good your husband stepped in to say enough is enough, but I also hope he checked to be sure that there was no damage to the instrument, and offered to pay for it if there was. I think you are making this about the beer because you want it to be about that, but I am guessing the man would have been equally as angry had there been no beer in the equation if your son damaged his guitar.

I don't know the policies of your particular church, but unless the alcohol is specifically prohibited at all church functions, that's not the point.

The point is that this was a dad/son trip (or a male mentor/kid program) - and THAT'S why the alcohol was inappropriate. It wouldn't matter if it was a church or synagogue, a Boy Scout (or Girl Scout) program, a Boys/Girls Club deal, a civic group, a school program, or the town recreation program. The point is, some adults decided to teach kids that a "back to nature", only-the-essentials, let's-bond-and-be-role-models getaway wouldn't be complete without hauling in beer. So, assuming they had bare-bones sleeping bags and campfire type food and chores to set up camp in the "wilderness", why was beer considered an essential? Now, I know that marshmallows and other supplies for s'mores aren't essential, but they are traditional. As would something like a deck of cards or a guitar for campfire songs. The point is to have fun without TV or video games or lights, just fire and flashlights and listening to the sounds of nature.

Then the raucous behavior was completely out of line too - alcohol or no alcohol. Some of the men turned it into a frat party and a "out of the wives' eyesight" free-for-all. The stories, the language, (even without the booze) - THAT was the message for the kids?

So the wrong people went as chaperones, and not enough men stood up to the party boys.

Don't make your argument about alcohol only - make it about role modeling and what the church stands for.

The adults in my family have always enjoyed a drink around the kids. Never have we gotten drunk. I would be very mad regardless that my child was yelled at for accidentally spilling a beer by a drunk guy. The fact that it was a church event is irrelevant to me. That guy was out of line!!!

Most church functions I attend have alcohol available (ie wine), and all camping trips I go on include a beer by the campfire, so I would not have been surprised about the beer. I would expect people not to get drunk and belligerent at a father/son church function. We were at a camp function this past summer when my son was yelled at by a sober guy for making too much noise at 9:00pm when he was trying to sleep. Adults don't need to be drunk to yell at kids.

So this guy flipped out on your son and your husband just sat there or perhaps all the guy did was yell be careful, or watch your step, or something loudly telling your son he spilled his beer. Otherwise you have a bigger problem with your husband than men drinking at a camp out.

It doesn't sound like anyone was drunk and it doesn't sound like this guy flipped out, you just want that to be true so you can demand no drinking next time.

There are a lot of people who drink socially and don't think about church being a reason not to drink.

The fact that this was a church outing doesn't bother me. The fact that this was a men's/son's camping trip does.

No schmuck has any business yelling at a kid for knocking over his beer. Men don't need to be telling off-colored stories in front of kids. Talk to the pastor and the person who put this together. Ask why they were drinking with a bunch of kids on the trip.

I really don't think you should be pushing the "church" factor. It's about the kids. Camping isn't an unsafe practice, per se, but people can get hurt in the dark stumbling around not thinking well. They can drink at home.

If they don't issue a policy saying no alcohol, your husband and son shouldn't be going.

i can see lots of different sides to this, but when the rubber meets the road i'm pretty much with you- you send your kid to a church function, you do kind of have a bottom line that includes people NOT getting drunk, yelling at kids or telling blue stories.

but i guess church groups are pretty diverse. while many would assume no drinking, some are fine with it, and apparently yours is one of them. and i wouldn't necessarily think a beer or two or some wine is totally out of place UNLESS there was a rule forbidding it.
and unless it got abused.

if the drunk guy really did yell at your son (and while it may well have happened, remember that sometimes these things get a little magnified in a kid's mind) i'm sad your husband didn't intervene on his behalf. but i totally get being miffed- if that's your kid's first takeaway from an event that should have been uber-fun, then it's likely that the focus WASN'T on making sure the sons were the reason for everyone being there in the first place.

while i wouldn't make a huge stink about it, i'd probably insist that the church at the very least make that sort of guideline clear in the future. and if my husband and son went on another trip and it was hashed out in advance that drinking was condoned, i'd have a quiet, serious conversation with my husband beforehand about making sure that it stayed fun and appropriate for YOUR kid.
khairete
S.

I would ask how did your dad handle it? If he didn't do anything? I might ask why....if he didn't, I would assume that the guy didn't "yell" at him but was upset over the spilled drink.

however....in the future? I would ask if the events are non-alcoholic. And if they aren't? I would not participate.

I hope he can talk about other fun things that happened instead of just that!

Sounds like you're focusing on the alcohol. These things can happen when there is no alcohol. Adults "yell" at children when upset. Again, "yelling" at children happens without alcohol. I put "yelling" in quotes because I do not know what was said. I can understand someone responding in anger when his guitar was knocked over. Sometimes we do go overboard and need someone to step in to stop it. Your husband did that.

I would be more concerned about inappropriate stories. However, people have differing ideas for what is appropriate. And....men tend to be more rough in talk when no women are around. I suggest that because your husband didn't do anything about the stories he found them acceptable. He supported your son when the man went on "yelling" too long. Why wouldn't he remove his son if he found them inappropriate?

Because I don't know the men, the stories or what else happened I can't know for sure but I suspect much of what you're upset about is acceptable to many people. I suggest your reaction is based on not accepting/understanding the differences between what women accept and what men accept. This was a mens'night. If the sons and fathers did overall have a good time, I'd call it a good trip.

I suggest that your son may think talking about what was wrong instead of what was fun because that is your focus. His conversation with his Dad on the way home may have influenced his story to you. Did your husband talk about both sides to this incident? Your son should not have knocked over the guitar. When it's dark we have to be more careful. We also should immediately apologize when this happens. Perhaps the man inappropriately "yelled" at your son. That's life. I see this as a learning opportunity for your son. He's learning social skills. He could've learned how to not knock things over and what to do when this happens. He could've learned that although the man was angry, he should've expressed himself differently. It is what it is. Let go of wanting things different and move on to the next adventure.

I suggest you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're giving way too much importance to an incident that happened in 5 minutes or less. You're focusing on alcohol when what happened is about behavior. Behavior that will happen in a similar way over his entire life span.

I suggest you stop the judgement and focus on what did we learn. Alcohol may have caused this man to over react. Similar things happen without alcohol.

Instead of trying to change others, consider what you can do to support your family's idea of acceptable decorum. If your husband agrees to not participate in events that include alcohol then don't participate. You now know father/son camping includes alcohol so don't go. If the other fathers' accept drinking beer at a camp out, they can decide what is acceptable in that group. Why should you expect them to conform to your expectations. I believe that groups have to function in a way acceptable to the majority. When someone disagrees, they can leave the group. We cannot change anyone else. Only ourselves. We can might be able to change a group when many people want change. Until the group decided to change, you have the option to either stay or not stay. Or to stay and not participate in activities that go against your values.

If the church overall meets your needs, I suggest staying. This was one small incident that won't make other activities different.

I don't understand why you think your son doesn't need to say he's sorry. He accidently knocked over the beer and the guitar. It is expected that we apologize when we do something that shouldn't have happened. I suspect that if he knocked over his milk you'd expect him to say sorry. Sorry, I made a mess. Sorry I knocked over your drink AND your guitar. I hope it's not damaged.

If this is what goes on at a church function, I would find a new church. Does the pastor know? I would make sure he/she does as well as the church elders. Alcohol has no place at a church function or a father/son outing. What a great example those men set for their children. NOT!!!!

I understand that as a church trip, you had expectations of strictly G-rated, innocent behavior for everyone involved. Apparently the church flyers did not forbid alcohol, so you may want to request that with higher ups next time so that everyone is on the same page. If people were wasted and dropping f-bombs, telling inappropriate sex stories, and yelling at kids for spilling their drinks that certainly doesn't sound very church-like. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen terrible behavior like that at BBQs that are not related to church and are unapologetically serving beer all day to everyone. At least the ones my friends have. Aside from profanity-which I'm OK with my kids hearing since every adult I knew swore when i was a kid-there has been no negative effect from having my kids at social gatherings where alcohol is served. And sober people swear too. The church angle is what made this social drinking incident especially awkward. And the guy who "flipped out on" your son. But I'm hoping your son isn't slightly exaggerating this as he acquires your intolerance for people who drink.

I barely ever drink, but if I was at a camping trip around a fire at night I'd love a beer. Was your husband as upset about this a your are? He can also approach the church and request sober events.

I get it that you hate the fact that people drink and it's so pervasive that you feel like almost no one understands your valid opinion that it REALLY IS WRONG to drink because alcoholics really do have a problem. But you have to let it go. Maybe not in church where perhaps you can have alcohol forbidden for church events if you work toward that.

I think it really is wrong to own guns. They really do account for hundreds of accidental deaths and murders per year. But everyone in my town loves guns, and many are concealed carriers. It's no use for me to go around being disappointed with everyone all the time. It won't change anything. Guns are legal and alcohol is legal. None of us can control everyone else.

Your son's dad was sober. Your son has a great role model. I'm sure they had a good trip if the behavior of others did not ruin it. If it did, then take action for the future.

While I like to think responsible adults could have A (as in one) beer and not get blotto drunk, I do think the drinking adults at this function did not behave appropriately.
At a church function - those participating are representing the church - and they didn't act like it.
If this is an example of the behavior that can be expected - I don't think your son should be participating in these events anymore.
If the other kids had similar experiences - the talk will get around.
It's been tried and the alcohol on the trip didn't work out.
The church should ban alcohol on trips going forward - and it might help if the adults apologized for their behavior.

Because people are unable to "drink reasonably" as you put it, alcohol at church sponsored events probably is not a good idea, especially if children will be involved in the event. With that said, I think it's okay to have drinks with church friends at a get together that's not sponsored by the church.

I don't think you son's version is correct. One of my daughters use to tell me to stop yelling at her and I never so much as raised my voice with her. Her 'yelling' was my 'stern warning' complete with the mom look. So please don't think that someone yelled at your child and no other adult stepped in to stop it.

I'd be more concerned with the colorful stories and language while the kids were still up.That's the topic I would talk to the pastor about. These fathers are there to be role models for their sons. I think the church would need to plan better for future trips to have camp fire activities that draw people together without booze and off color stories.

I don't care that it was a church function, I care that it was a dad/son trip.

I am so anti-alcohol as I have seen far too many people I love struggle with it (and still do), so I hate it in general. Was your husband not able to handle the guy yelling at your son? I would hope so - and if he did- let it go. It's been handled.

Again, this isn't about church, this is about father/son camping.

I would have your husband handle it, since he was there and he knows if anyone was drunk or just angry that a kid knocked over his drink. Is this a problem with the drinking or men not behaving well in front of children? In my experience, alcohol at a church function is unusual unless it's ceremonial wine, but I've also never been camping with a church group. Some denominations are completely dry and some are not.

I think that a lot depends on the stated purpose of the camping trip. Often, churches will plan an event and say something like "this will give our couples a chance to pray together and strengthen their marriage" or "this event is aimed at helping dads reach out to their sons and show them how Godly men respect their families" or "join other moms to pray for our children", etc.

Was there a reason for this trip, or was it just a get-away for social purposes, like just a bunch of guys who know each other from church who feel like going camping, and oh by the way, bring your kid if you want?

If there was a purpose for the trip, was it fulfilled? Or did it get lost in beer and off-color stories? Were there church leaders along on the trip? Was there a designated leader?

What's your husband's opinion? Did he talk with your son about the events of the weekend? It sounds like maybe a beer or two around a campfire wouldn't have been inappropriate, but it also sounds like some guys had too much. They could have demonstrated that you can have a beer, when there's no danger of driving, and still stay in control. A lot depends on the purpose of the trip, and if church leaders showed a lack of control.

I would be really frustrated and disappointed, too. Seems like there should have been a policy in place one way or another. I have honestly not seen groups be able to demonstrate responsible drinking in front of kids, and we have varying groups to which we belong, which is sad. DD has been on soccer, basketball, and softball teams, and at team dinners I am always horrified by at least one or two of the parents. My husband's work friends, etc. I guess this is why they should have policies! I hope you bring it up to someone for future planning. The church will no doubt be upset by this. I guess we've never really had an 'off site' church thing, so I can't report what's been normal for us! Sorry this happened.

Our church has strict policy against alcohol. It's like a mortal sin...well, not literally but no one drinks. SO if someone had pulled out a beer then they'd have been asked to leave. Had someone started telling raunchy stories or anything like that, they'd have been asked to leave.

I grew up going to the baptist church in our neighborhood then went to a Pentecostal Holiness church as a teen, Assembly of God came next, then Non-Denominational and now LDS. So I've had a varied background. But I can truly say that if any one of my old churches had been doing a camp out of any time and alcohol was brought out they would have asked that person to put it up or leave.

It seems there is such an array of perspective to this that there is no right or wrong.

Because people are so different in their ways, it is hard for us to see who's right and who's wrong. Let's start with, "I'm pretty sure I'm the only non-drinker in my entire church". If you feel that way, I would say it is time for you to find another church. Number 1, you have some harsh feelings toward drinking (which you are entitled to), 2, you have a different opinion as to whether drinking belongs in a church function.

You don't mention if the guitar was broken, so I would assume that the guitar fell over and it was fine. With that, the man probably overreacted. I am wondering why the man brought his baby to a camp where there would be children who could harm the guitar. Thankfully your little guy didn't accidentally kick the guitar into the campfire and it got burned up...okay, haha, that was my joke to the man's overreaction. As for the beer, who cares. It was a beer and if there weren't anymore beers left, the man sounds like he needed to turn in for the night anyway.

So here's my problem with the kids. NO ONE yells at my kids. It's my rule, my peeve. With that, I make sure my kids are not disturbing others, even at a camping trip that involves kids. I am probably borderline prude, when it comes to my kids getting on adults nerves. Because I am on my kids about their behavior, I don't have much problem with other people correcting them. I have mellowed with the second child, but I know not all adults think alike when it comes to kids.

Was your son too rowdy by a fire, where the adults were sitting? I'm not saying it was an adult circle, but it did sound like it. I have had moments where I have asked my kids to excuse us if you will, because some things are inappropriate for kids. It sounds like your husband holds the same views when it comes to what your children are exposed to, so why didn't your husband find somewhere else to entertain the kids? It sounds like he needed to be the guy to step out of the adult circle and entertain them for a while.

My final thought. This will happen the next time, so find a new church. If not, ask your husband to remove your son when things seem too heated.