5-Yr-old Back Talk and Hitting

i say it is a phase. it's a new developmental milestone 4-6 years old. new independence, add to that she just finished a dance class AND graduated from pre-school, and she thinks she's big stuff! well, she is! :D my duaghter started this at about 4-5, too. it has taken awhile to get her back on track, but i stuck to my guns with the same type of things you are doing -- time-outs and taking things away. with the sass especially i would just say things like: "i don't talk to you that way, try that again." or "do you want something? that is not the way to get it." and then ignore her until she asked politely. it had a lot to do with attention (no baby here, so it may have nothing to do with the new baby), just with her new found big kid self.
we do still get some of the sass, and she still gets time-out, reprimands, etc for using it. but it's just testing the limits. be consistent.
oh, and hitting/kicking/etc is completely not tolerated here. if those things happen it is straight to her room for an extended amount of time by herself. when i feel she is ready to come out (or she calls from her room and asks to come out), we talk about why the hitting is not ok.

B.,
I used "Sassy Sauce" on my daughter at that age...she's ten now, no issues!
Sassy sauce is simply white vinegar that I put in a small spray bottle...sassy mouth = spray of sassy sauce.
She threw up the first time it tasted so bad! (That was not my intent, by the way!)
Good luck!
Don't accept it now or it will only be harder to change later!

Google positive discipline by Jane Nelsen, this has helped me in so many ways by looking beyond the actions to the emotions. This way of teaching ourselves and our children helps us to teach with love and respect.....it reall helped me!

Hi B.,
Everything I'm about to say I've learned from Tuesday's Child. For one when you child hits you you say firmly, "NO hitting is not a choice. Use your words. You look mad. Are you mad? And get her talking.
As far as getting her to do things you ask, you're right time outs and taking toys away and/or spanking doesn't work. Start by catching her doing things that are good. Praise her to death and ignore the behavior you don't like. Unless its agressive behavior. Then you'd say what I said above... NO HITTING IS NOT A CHOICE, you need to use your words.
What we do is set a timer and have something fun to do after the thing we're about to do so there is something for him to look forward to- some kind of reinforcer. We say, "in 5 minutes it will be time to clean up and when we're all done cleaning up then we can have a snack." Then when the timer goes off we say 'ok that's the timer, time to clean up and when we're all done cleaning up then we can have a snack.' If he gets fussy or angry we say, "I don't listen to whining. When you use your big boy words we will listen.' he then changes his tone and uses his words to usually express that he doesn't want to stop playing. At this point we can empathize with him, 'I know it makes you sad to have to stop playing, but its time to stop playing and clean up and when were all done cleaning up, then we can have a snack.' Then I model the behavior I want from him. I say, 'please put your blocks in the box and I pick one up and put it in.' If he refuses I say, 'its time to pick up your blocks, are you going to do it yourself, or do you want momma to help you?' Then he'll let me know what he wants and we go from there. I will continue to mention that snack as a reinforcer. When we're done cleaning up, then we can have a snack. If he says I don't want a snack I say that's ok you don't have to have a snack but we're still going to clean up your toys.
The thing to get across is that its time to do what you asked. They can either comply themselves, or you will walk them through it. There is no way around what you have asked them to do. The snack (or the reinforcer is not negotiable- another words if he says, I don't want a snack, I want to play candyland). At that point I can say Oh that sounds fun playing candyland, we can play that a little later, right now its time to clean up and have snack. That lets him know two important things, that I heard him and when he can play candyland. And I even say to my son sometimes when he gets fussy, 'ya know what buddy, its alot more fun when you cooperate with momma. I like having fun, don't you? Then I'll sing a clean up song or something. This approach works for anything. The secret is just stating your commands clearly and following through.
For more info about this approach call Tuesday's Child. ###-###-#### 4028 W Irving Park Rd Chicago, IL
They have helped me immensely. My son is very oppositional and when I went there for the first time I was at my wits end. I was spanking him and afraid to take him anywhere because of his tantrums. We were miserable. They have helped me understand how to handle him better. I can look ahead to a wonderful life with my son because of this place! Blessings,
J.

Hi B.,
I was out of town this weekend, but am catching up on my Mamasource! Give Parenting with Love and Logic by Jim Fay a try. I own them on CD and they are wonderful! Some of the things that I learned from the CD's were: When my children scream things at me I would say I will be happy to listen to you when your voice is calm like mine. My kids now use those very statements in arguements with their 8 year old friends. Or for time out, I learned to say you are going to time out it is your choice whether you walk there or I carry you. Love and Logic is age based, so there are different ones for different age groups. At first I checked it out of the library, but I enjoyed listenting to them so much over and over that I bought the 4-6 year old ones, the teens one (for my step daughter) the boxed set!

The cd's address all sorts of issues, I really wish I could remember what they would say if your child hits you, but that if was addressed doesn't stick out. The picky eater is addressed on the cd's and so much more!

Good Luck!

B., I have a seven year old daughter who began back-talking and arguing with me over everything at the beginning of the school year when she was six. I was hearing these sassy, smart-mouth comebacks that shocked me! One day when she asked me for candy before dinner and I responded with a reasonable negative reply, she answered back "All I'm hearing is 'no' here", I asked her where she heard that (I knew it didn't come from me!) she responded "Hannah Montana". I immediately cancelled my cable service. That was six months ago and the smarty mouth is gone. It stopped amazingly fast once she stopped watching shows like Hannah Montana, and the Suite Life with Zach and Cody where disrespect to adults is rewarded with a laugh track. We still argue- and its okay, this is the age for her to develop her own identity and will, but it is much much better! I have no idea if these shows are having any influence on your daughter, but they certainly were on mine!

Sounds so normal, to be testing those boundaries, but so very frustrating for you!!!!

Try these books:

1-2-3 Magic (Phelan)
Parenting with Love & Logic (Cline & Fay) -- used in a first-grade classroom where I was a student teacher.

The gist of both is non-emotion on your part when enforcing rules and reasonable, predictable consequences for unwanted behavior (setting boundaries). "1-2-3" is a little more authoritarian than the second, but seems like it would work for the "acute" behaviors you're describing.

I've even successfully used some of these techniques on high school students. :)

My 3 year old has started some of this too. What's working for me right now is taking away what I know she really wants or loves. For me it's only taken once or twice of me sticking to my guns and taking it away for real and not giving it back for at least a full day and she responds. Before giving it back I also make her repeat to me what she did wrong and what will happen if she does it again and then apologize. I have also been known to literally lock her in her room after removign anything remotely fun for her for a period of time. We use those door knob covers for now because she hasn't figured them out yet but I have no issue reversing the locks when/if she does figure that out. In the past I've been wishy washy with her but now that I've started really sticking to punishments and following through she's getting it. I have no idea about the hitting. Haven't encountered that yet. I can see that being a serious enough offense for taking away a birthday party or a bike. My daugher has a lovey she sleeps with and I wouldn't mess with that but if she hit me it would be gone. I'd let her see it before she went to bed and remind her why she's not getting it. May seem harsh but it works for us and I'm not yelling or hitting which I think really doesn't do much.

I hear the same thing from most moms with 5 year olds. for some reason thats when the attitude hits. I have my 5 year old write 25 times I will repect my mom or my sibling. I dont care if he has to go to the bathroom, is hungry, etc.. he will have to sit at the table until its done. you can do the same with hitting. once done I sit at my childs level and we talk about what they had to write. you probably could do the same with hitting. At night I read a lot of books about is it right to fight or bully books. as far as soap in the mouth. many people do not recommend it due to the chemichals etc..

I think that she has learned from other people. I would have a real conversation with her alone when she is happy. Ask her what is going on and really listen. Tell her how you really feel. Tell her you need her help. Tell her she is an important part of the family. Set helping goals together. Make a list of everything Mommy and Daddy do before the conversation. Ask her how she can help.

Examples of questions to ask yourself for the list. What do I do from the time I wake up until I go to bed. Every single step. DO not miss anything. Then make the list digestable for a child. Write what she does now. Tell her when she gets angry it takes away from the happy time.

Let her have a tiem alone with Mommy and Daddy together and separate times. She needs to know she is still the baby to. I am sure their are a lot of issues going on with her. Maybe she is just not handling all the changes illness, school ending etc.

I know you can all work it out together. If all else fails see a therapist church or peds office may have one.

Hi, B.. First, I do wash my daughter's mouth out with soap (I rub the soapy toothbrush on her tongue just so she can get a good taste, then I make her rinse well so she doesn't get diarrhea from swallowing the soap). We go through long stretches then where she won't sass me. And if she begins to argue or sass, I remind her I can get the soap. I think soap in the mouth works a lot better with boys, since they're not naturally sassy. My daughter's 6, and I think I've soaped her mouth a total of 5 times. But more important, you have to deal with the issue of her lack of respect. Sometime when it's calm, sit down with her and ask if there's anything you and your husband do that makes her feel disrespected. And then let her know what she's doing to be disrespectful to you. Give her tools to express herself in a more respectful manner. For instance, tell her she's not allowed to say, "I don't have to," or, "You can't make me." You can have her imagine how she would feel if she asked you for something or to help her do something and you responded in that manner. And, at some point, especially if she doesn't stop sassing you, then come back with that. The next time she asked for a snack, you can say, "I don't have to get you one." It's one way of showing her how it feels. I've heard of parents doing something similar when their child throws a tantrum--the lay down on the ground and starting kicking and screaming, too, and the kid stops throwing them. You need to let her know that from now on, there will be no backtalking any adults. That she is to treat everybody in the manner she wants to be treated. I have issues with my daughter once in a while. We have to revisit the respect issue. Her father and I broke up 3 1/2 years ago, and according to him she's extremely disrespectful at his house. Well, he's been letting her get away with it, not to mention she's a girl ("she's a girl" is an excuse that only gets so far with me, though--she doesn't get away with an attitude just because she's a girl). Timeouts and taking toys and games away do work as long as you're consistent. And it's a good sign you have to fight with her (to an extent) to get her in timeout. It means she doesn't like it. My daughter will also hit, scream, kick, and scratch. I take her from behind in a bear hug with her arms pinned at her side and sit her where I want her. I tell her she better not dare move. Her timeout starts when she stops the screaming and flailing. At the end, she has to tell me why she was in timeout, what she'll do different, and apologize. Again, I RARELY have to give her a timeout. Another thing effective for me is telling her she has to sleep in her room. She usually sleeps with me. If she doesn't behave, I remind her that sleeping in my room is a privelege. If she's not going to behave, she's going to sleep in her room without her nightlight. She's scared enough that she generally stops the behavior I'm trying to control in a hot second. So if your daughter has to have the nightlight to sleep or the door open or whatever, you can use that to control her, too. Good luck! I was a sassy teen, and my mom always said she hopes I have one just like me, but 10 times worse. Well, karma's coming and biting me in the butt... The most important thing is to sit down with your daughter and have an honest discussion about what she doesn't like that you do, what she likes that you do, and what you do and don't like that she does. And remember, positive reinforcement will ensure that behaviors you do like keep repeating.

Love and Logic books, seminars, etc. are effective and promote "positive discipline," an approach most scientific research and child psychologists support. My six year-old daughter is better behaved today than she was a year or so ago, mostly due to a few simple L&L principles. She and I have an improved relationship that I feel will continue to pay off in the future, such as when she's a teenager.

What ever the discipline you decide to use you must be consistent and keep doing it. The issue will not go away immediately and it will get better and then perhaps regress a little to test you. Has your baby started crawling recently? I found that kids become most jealous when their little sibling starts to invade their territory and touching their stuff etc. I find five years of age is a difficult year. It will get better, but you can not allow her to hit so that does need to be addressed.

Hey, the soap worked for me too and two times with it was enough and I didn't even swear in high school. If you want to try something milder, how about vinegar, kids are scared just by the name of it. Some questions, did she pick this up at pre-school, kids are such imitators and if she sees another kid treat their M. like that she's very likely to try it. Ask the pre-school and dance teachers, if you can. Is she getting enough sleep, is she crankier than usual at other times? Were you stressed about something when this started, hire a sitter and go out and enjoy yourself with a friend or your husband -- a new baby and a sick child can wear you out and it's so gradual you don't notice. As far as discipling for hitting, grab her hand or foot and prevent it and then tell her hands are for loving and doing good things. Then show her with your hands, "See, I can use my hands to stroke your hair or lift you uup and give you a hug. Can you think of something nice to do with your hands?" Try to keep punishments aimed at the offending action. Same thing for Miss mouthy, put your hand over her mouth and prevent her from saying it, and teach her how to say it nicely. "I can tell you don't want to do this, can you tell me in nice words about that. " I hope you get the idea. Good luck.

Hi B.,
I had the good ol' soap in mouth technique and it worked too but I think what really made it work is that I knew that my Mom made the threat to do it based on my bad mouthing and then followed thru on it. So make sure you follow thru on your consequences for the sassiness and what not. The soap routine is cruel, tempting as it is. I have a five year old also. It seems they really start to test you at this age. You have to be super firm. For punishments, I take away stuff like TV time, electronic games, etc. for a day. You have to explain why the punishment is being dished out. It may not seem to work in the short term but it will eventually.

Try to do special stuff that is just for your daughter. She might be trying to get your attention based on her sibling rivalry. My son and I have a little tea party sometimes (with decaf tea) with his little tea set that has a holder for cream and sugar. Sometimes we invite teddy bears, super heroes, and even Godzilla. When I was a kid my Mom let me play hooky from school one day out of the year around Christmas time to see the window displays at Marshall Fields. It was a tradition. Kids never forget stuff like this and helps to bring your children closer to you. Sometimes I catch myself assuming that my child and I will have a nice close relationship but then I realize that if it is going to happen, I have to work at it.

I found that when kids are around other kids, preschool, activities that they learn behaviors from kids who learned it from their older siblings. This is when mine started to talk back and do things that were really questionable, however everything was enhanced when my 4 year old(currently 7) seemed to have very magnified behavoir issues. She was diagnosed in late 4 with celiac disease. She has since become much better as now she has the nutrients for her body. She does still talk back, but now I know she needs a talk and then punishment that really matters to her,she lost TV,movies for 6 months. I ask her everyday if she understands her punishment and what she has to do to earn it back.

I agree with the other 2 except for sending her to her room. She'll just play there and it will be like no punishment at all. I like a corner or hallway. Her timeout will not start unless she sits there quitely for the entire time (singing is ok). Hitting or kicking is a ten minute time out. Let her know that you are disappointed in her behavior and it is never ok to hit or kick. Let her know that she is not allowed to disrespect you. Mine used to do it more. I was very surprised to learn that she was doing it to get me upset. After I figured it out, her sassing reduced. Keep your cool. I absolutely agree with taking away privledges-computer time, tv time. Sounds like she is very bored and is aching for your attention. Let her pick a fun activity for the two of you if her behavior improves.

I've been taking this class called Parenting with Love and Logic. Basically you never have to raise your voice at the child... you make their problems THEIR problems and don't put it on yourself. Always give sympathy first when the do something bad... say, oh that's sad when you hit me like that. Guess we'll have to talk about it later...or what should you do to fix this? So, sympathy and then put off the consequences until you have time to think of what it is. And start a conversation about why people hit and what she thinks about it. But the main thing is for you to stay calm...if they see that you are not worried then they think that someone should be and so then they do. I don't know if this really helps, there are more suggestions just don't want to make this message too long. Good luck!

I have a 4 and 1/2 year old who is too big for me to carry to a time out so when he refuses, I say if you won't go, Mommy is taking a time out. I take my younger daughter and go in a different room (where I can still hear him) for a few minutes. It seems to freak him out enough that he stops what he is doing and says sorry so we will come back.

Try some of the advice given on the www.supernanny.com web sit They give some good advice on that site as well as on the TV show on ABC.

Just an idea

S.

Soap works better than anything else. Just put a little liquid soap on your finger and swish it in her mouth. Other things that seem to work better than time-outs or spanking include taking things away for a day or so. Make sure they are whatever she favors most, such as tv, video games, bike, favorite daytime toy, etc.

I think it's just a phase. I suggest you take some special time with her each day, only for her. She may be needing to feel close to you since you are so busy with your new baby. I'd sit down when you are both calm and talk with her about her behavior. I've had to do that with my kids and it really does work. When you try to show her you are just trying to teach her that back talk will get her in trouble at school and she will not have lots of friends at school if she talks mean to them. There is nothing wrong with sending a child to their room for time out. It's better if a child does not have a TV and tons of toys in their room. But if they do sit and look at books and play with a doll, it gives them time to think and cool down. Kids hate being separated from the rest of the family. All kids are different but time out in their bedroom really worked for all my 4 kids. They hated being separated from everyone else. Their attitude would change quickly. Put her in her room for 1 minute per year she is old...so your daughter would be in there for 5 minutes. When her behavior gets better you can go back to just having a time out chair in the kitchen.

Did this start around the time your son became mobile? I noticed some new behaviors in our son (mostly negative), and they all seemed to coincide with when his little sister started crawling, but I didn't realize it until later. It's getting better now that she's getting older and they can play together more- or at least interact with each other. Her body might still be tired and recovering from fighting those illnesses the last few months too. Sounds like a rough time. I would try to be sensitive to what is changing with her. Make sure she's getting enough individual attention. I found that the new baby was the least demanding in the beginning when she slept a lot, and later required more attention. It may be hard to adjust to not having school and dance for the summer too. Good luck!

I would have her checked out medically first to make sure she is medically not hiding something that is making her more tired and less tolerable. I would let her verbally know that kicking and hitting are unacceptable and that is seems like she is very angry or frustrated right now and help her get the words back as to how she is feeling and what she wants. For the time outs. I call them thinking area (my son sees me go there too sometimes). But before we get out, we have to discuss what we did, what we should do differently next time, and it ends with an I'm sorry and a hug and kiss. Sometimes these periods are a minute, sometimes 5.
I think too making sure that you are building a good relationship with your daughter is important. That you are doing special fun things, laughing a lot together, exploring and playing together. Then she will be more incline to listen. I always have to go backwards like that with my son. Especially if I am focusing too much on work, or household chores...He makes it obvious when he needs the time (I wonder if you are able to do that with the new baby?).

Sit down when you both are calm and tell her her behavior is unacceptable. You will not tolerate back talk, hitting, kicking, spitting. When you ask her to do something, you want her to do it at that time, not later and without any back sass. You also tell her how she will be disciplined. Lay it all out on the line for her. All punishments will be automatic for any infractions on her part.

When she does these things - automatic time out in her room. If she fights you, then you start taking away priviledges. No tv, no activities, no playdates. If she still persists, no toys (throw them in garbage bags and out in the garage). She can earn everything back by acting in an acceptable, mannerly way.

Remember, the talk you have before she starts any monkey business is the warning. She gets no other warning. It's all automatic after you lay down the law. You and your husband should be on the same page - maybe even map it out on paper before you talk to your daughter.

Don't be afraid to send her to bed without supper or snack if you find her behavior unacceptable. She will live and maybe be better behaved in the morning.

My kids used to say the same thing, "You can't make me!" My answer, "Yes, I can."

She will test you to see if you mean it. So MEAN IT! Stick to your guns. Good luck.