4 Month Old Extinction Sleep Training....What Am I Doing Wrong?

Dr. Ferber (whose method is often called cio) does not recommended this type of sleep training till 6 months of age. Personally, I'd never recommend it. It floods baby's little system with stress hormones and goes against every single mothering instinct I have.

There are much kinder, gentler ways to teach a baby how to sleep. And yes, they have to be taught how to sleep. They don't automatically know how. What really helped me was to learn about infant sleep, time frames,etc. Dr. Sears Baby Sleep Book, The Baby Whisperer and The No-Cry Sleep Solution all had invaluable info that I used to put together a sleep plan that worked for my kids.

All babies are different and every method does NOT work for every baby. Sometimes it's ok to call it quits. I'd say 10 ten nights is too long. It never worked for me and never worked for a couple of other folks I know. I also know a lot of people that it worked great for. Every baby/child is different and somef will NEVER cry it out. The crying will escalate and escalate. Just keep that in mind. And not to make you feel bad, but 4 months is too young. The other moms who said that are right. The book doesn't recommend it til 6 mos.

Hi J.!

This is such a controversial topic amongst moms, so I am sure you have gotten TONS of flack for your choice. The good news is that you won't get any from me!!!

Due to both my daughter's personality and my need to get a good night's rest in order to function as a good mom during the day, we went the "cry it out" route.

First of all, some kids are more stubborn than others when it comes to learning and second of all, you may be VERY right in that your daughter gets more pissed when you come back in, and it prolongs the problem. My daughter was this way so the method of periodic soothing did not work for us. The only thing that worked was "your down and that's it." Now I do know that with some babies' personalities, the periodic soothing does work great for them.

I recommend 2 things: 1) Spend time watching your little girl and her personality and then try the techniques that work with her personality and 2) Read books about baby sleep that can describe for you whether or not you should be concerned when they cry. The most helpful book for me was Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Weissbluth. He gives you full background on baby sleep patterns and describes different soothing methods - including the strengths and weaknesses of each. The 2nd most helpful was Babywise (I know, I know...someone wants to shoot me right now..I will not post my address :)!).

There are times when your baby does need your soothing, but unfortunately adults assume that every cry is a need for a parental soothing because they project adult psychological concepts onto infants. How funny are we that we do stuff like that?!?! One comforting thing for me when we started (and persevered) through sleep training was looking at my friend's kids who were anywhere from 1-4 years older than my daughter. They had also done sleep training (most often through the "cry it out" technique), and these kids were happy, healthy, well adjusted and they loved their parents. It reminded me that I was NOT scarring my child for life! Hope this helps!

God's Grace to you,

Lisa Crane :)

.

My girl got it after 4 nights. You aren't doing anything wrong that I can see although Mine is bottle fed so I'm not sure if that would make a difference?
I also didn't go in for routine 'pats'-I figured the 'pats' would make her think I would come at any noise and that wa snot what I was trying to teach her.

The first night-laid her down after she was drowsy and she cried for an hour and half (whined...not screamed)
Second night-Laid her down and she cried an hour and a half
third night-cried for 30 minutes
fourth night-cried 10 minutes and fell asleep
fifth night and now 2 months later-goes right to sleep when laid down and wakes at 6 am.

I also hold my daughter during naps (2 a day) for the max of an hour...she's never liked her crib during the day, only at night.

My daughter was 5 months old when we started this also.

Please don't let these ppl who are against CIO make you feel like a bad mom. Yes babies need reassurance, but they ALSO need independance and sleep training is the first step to that.

And trust me, a baby that sleeps well in their own crib for stretches at a time makes for a happy well rested baby AND a happier mom and daddy =) Good luck

I am sorry but I absolutely disagree with the "cry it out " method, especially for a 4 month old. At this age a baby has no concept about time....all they know is that Momma and Daddy, who are the center of their universe and supposed to be meeting every need have suddenly disappeared!! I think one of the other Mom's gave you some ideas of books to look at in order to get some different ideas about teaching your little one to sleep. I would really love for you to check into some of them and find a gentler way to teach your little one to sleep through the night.

I think cio is the best choice as a parent and for the child! obviously you are desperate to get some sleep. I think it is so important that we teach our babies how to fall asleep on their own! it is one of the first things we have to teach them in life and one of the most important. It is not always easy but I hope you will stick with your decision! When you and baby can get good uninterupted sleep you will both be happier and better people. My oldest cried 20 to 30 minutes everynight till she was about 6 or 8 months. If you know she is going to only cry for 30 minutes I would stop going in there at 15 minutes. Just let her cry. She is feed, in a safe place, she knows you love her and take care of her all she needs is sleep. I would start doing it at nap time also immediatly. If you do it consistently you will start to see the time she cries diminish. It is so great that you are taking these steps now! i see so many people on mamapedia how are asking about how to get their 3 or 4 year old to sleep through the night. These poor mama's and babies haven't gotten a good night's sleep in 3 or 4 years!! You are doing the right thing for you and your baby!! I know listening to them cry can be painful but remember not everything we have to learn in life is easy. jump in the shower to make it a little easier on you! You can have good sleep with children. I have two girls 4 and 2. after they were both 2 months old we were all sleeping through the night and have consistently continued to do so. They are very happy and I am very happy to get a good nights sleep. Good luck!

Wait another month! We didn't do "Ferber" with our daughter until right about 6 months, which is what I've read is a good time to do it. She already was sleeping through "the night" (6 or 7 hours) but needed to learn to GO to sleep on her own. Give your daughter a few more weeks... but don't wait until she is sitting up by herself. If you do it before she learns how to sit up in teh crib it will go much faster and easier.

Oh. and part of the "problem" may be what your ped said... going in at 15 minutes to pat her back. According to Dr. Ferber (and what I did) you go in at 5 minutes (don't pick up, just soothe without talking) then leave. Then go in at 10 minutes, and then again at 15 minutes. Continue at the 15 minute increments until she goes to sleep. Obviously, if she is not fussing you don't go in... but if you wait 15 minutes at the beginning.. then she is already WAY worked up. So don't wait that long. Go in at 5. Then wait until 10. Then wait until 15. USE A CLOCK.
And wait another month.

Our daughter went to sleep without a wimper by night #4.
Hugs.

I'm sorry people will jump your case over your choice to parent. Not everyone can be attached to their babies 24-7 and sometimes depending on our unique situations we need to make adaptations to make things work.

We used CIO in our house with our first child and, surprisingly enough, he has managed to become a loving and caring boy who still likes his parents. I know - shocker! We followed the same practice with our second child and he's doing fairly well. A good resource is "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" by Dr. Marc Weissbluth. And btw, the concept of 'extinction' comes from his book and refers to the night-wakings/crying becoming extinct or stopping.

I have a few thoughts:

-Sleep training is sleep training. What you do for bedtime you should also do for napping. The inconsistency in choosing methods for nap and bed may be confusing to her. The crying at night may be more intense because she is waiting and expecting for you to do the same routine you're doing during the day. Pick one method and stick with it - if that means rock and sleep OR put her down to sleep.

-Have a rock solid consistent routine at nap and bedtime. It could be diaper change, book, turn on cd of lullaby music, nurse, whatever. Do this routine EVERY time because it will start to signal to her "hey, it's time to wind down and go to sleep". Having a routine, she learns to expect that it is time for bed.

-At 4 1/2 months, you may just need to patient for a little bit longer. While some babies are ready around 4 months, others may need more time.

-Try putting her to bed a little earlier. She might be overtired by the time you get her settled in to nurse and if that's the case she'll have a more difficult time falling asleep and staying asleep. Our 6 month old son goes to bed between 5:45 and 6:15. Do I *want* him to go to bed that early? Not really but right now he *needs* to go to bed at that time, otherwise he has multiple night wakings. Sleep begets sleep.

Good luck to you and feel free to PM me if you have questions or need support. Don't let the naysayers here get you down; none of them have to live in your house!

I am not going to bash or affirm CIO for you, only tell you how my son was. I didn't have the stomach to stick to it for long, so I can't even tell you about success or not.

I really think some babies will NEVER get it with CIO. My son also would freak out if you kept going in to check on him, he woud get so mad! My son could cry all night if I let him. I was totally against co-sleeping at first, but ended up doing that just for some sleep. Mine was a horrible sleeper when he was little and needed contact or closeness all the time. My husband travels for work and once when I was sick and exhausted I couldn't take it anymore and instead of going back in repeatedly, I just tried to ignore it and sleep. I sort of deliriously drifted in and out and kept hearing him, literally all night long. He never did sleep. He would doze, catch himself, and cry some more. This happened after he was able to sit up, so he kept himself upright. I finally woke up enough to go get him, and brought him in bed with me, where we both got some sleep. I still feel terrible about the whole thing. In retrospect, I should have just brought him in sooner, or called my mother to come over and help me or something. Anyways, I never did that again. Maybe if I had tried CIO earlier it might have worked, but I'll never know.

The next day I went and bought No Cry Sleep Solution. You can use this book regardless of what method you are using. A lot of it is just information on how babies bodies and sleep cycles work so you know how to work with them, and tips that can help. So even if you really want to stick with CIO, you can use the info in this book to go about it more gently and effectively.

I think you have to do what works for you. With as little trauma as possible to everyone. If your daughter sleeps better swaddled, I see no reason to stop. I do think that doing two different techniques at nap and bedtime is contributing to the problem. No matter what method you use, consistency is the single most important part of it.

Personally, I would cut my losses and try something else if it was me in your shoes. The fact you didn't really want to do this means you are probably going to have a hard time doing it correctly and making it work. And if you are all miserable, what is the point? I haven't read it but have heard that the Baby Whisperer book is a gentler approach similar to the CIO method, and supposedly works very well. I hope you figure out something that works for you, I know how hard it is to not have a sleeping baby. Good luck!

I never let my kids cry for more than 5 minutes. After 5 I would go in and pat their backs and sing softly until they were completely calm, and than leave. If they fussed again I would wait another 5 and go back in. I never had to go in more than once. She is not too young, in fact the younger you start the better. The reason I never had to go in more than once was because I started at less than 2 months and it came very natural to them because they were so young. Just do not let the crying go on to long or she will get herself worked up, that is why 5 minutes works very well. Putting babies to bed awake at the same time each night and letting them learn to sleep in actually what is recommended by many developmental psychologist. The 5 minute method I used I learned about in my developmental psyc coarse in college.

Yes, I don't see how patting a baby is going to really soothe them. Sounds like she is not tired. Waking up after being put down is pretty common in the first few months. My son would only sleep if held or in a car seat for the first 2 months. We then transitioned him to the pack and play where he would sleep for 3-4 hours at a time. I undestand your frustration, some babies need more security than others. Is she gaining weight properly? I nursed exclusively but started my son on rice cereal at that age and it really helped him sleep and be more satisfied. I don't think that CIO is working for you right now. You sound like a great mom but try giving her some cereal before bed (dinner) and then move her bedtime later. My son still to this day will not go to bed before 9:30. Make sure she is tired (but not delirious),. give her a nice relaxing bath, establish a routine so she starts to get sleepy. Get her a "lovey" if she doesn't have one already, and also put on some music at bedtime. We use the Ocean Wonders aquarium. She can turn it on herself and its very soothing. All this stress is not good for any of you. Just do what works, she is still very very young.

I would stop this torture for the baby and yourself.

I started training my daughter at 6 weeks put her in the cradle and stood over her while she sucked her paci.. rock the cradle,,, put the paci back in..

does the child have a paci or a thumb?? babies often need to suck to sleep.. they dont know how to go to sleep.

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this before. but 45min nursing is way too long! Your daughter is probably getting comfortable being that close to you and when you move her to her crib you disrupt her dozing off. I would start by cutting down on the nursing (nursing should not be used as a comfort tool) and the same routine should be used at nap time and night time. If she absolutely wants to nurse try pacifiers instead.

Holding her while she sleeps is not good. I have a 6m old and yes I know it is so awesome to hold them sleeping. Only do it for a bit and than lay her in her crib. I nursed for 3m and at about 3 1/2m started feeding rice cereal with a spoon. (directions on the box) Now my son sleeps through the night no problem. Baby Wise is a great book to read to help you out. Good Luck

She's too young for cry it out. Try to transition slowly from nursing to sleep. It may also help to swaddle her before putting her down if you aren't already. they like to feel safe & snug & secure, and they also have a startle reflex. Babies aren't adults - they don't "figure out" stuff - ignore the no swaddle thing - if your daughter likes it and it helps her, keep doing it. When she doesn't need it anymore and she's strong enough, she'll get out of it herself. Good luck!

Four months old is WAY too young to leave your baby to cry-it-out. (Actually, I think it is never a good idea, but if it is to be done, at least wait until you can explain it to your child so they know why you are not tending to them during the night.)

You ask if it is confusing to her to do it at night and not at naptime, and I believe that, yes, it is very confusing to her. It may be tough on you now, but tending to your child now pays HUGE dividends when they are older. I saw a great quote just this evening: "What a child doesn't receive he can seldom later give."

And "Why is she not figuring it out?" She is probably wondering why you aren't figuring out that she needs your help, lol! Babies cry for a reason, even if it is "just" to be comforted. And nursing for comfort IS OKAY!!

The Baby Sleep Book by Dr Sears has some great advice on how to help your baby sleep peacefully at night.

And a big KUDOS to you for helping her sleep during the day!! And for nursing :D Very important!

This is a great article, for when she is a bit older: http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

Good luck to you, mama, and no matter what choices you make (even if they're worlds apart from what I would do), just make sure that it feels right to you in your heart!

I have a sleep program if you want me to e-mail it to you I will. My e-mail is ____@____.com

Okay, just keep a few things in mind "the kid" is still a beautiful blessing from GOD and "crying and screaming" is just part of parenthood that we have to adjust to as we become parents. I know exactly how you feel though! My 3 year old was a great sleeper......then came my next baby (who is now 10 months) she did not sleep as well. Woke up quite often during the night to feed and she still wakes up at least twice but not to feed......she will just cry and I go and pat/rub her on her back and she will go back to sleep. I think she is to little to cry it out (thats just me). I would wait a couple more months. Have you tried one of those musical soothers. We bought one for my daughter and on several nights she would just stare at it until she fell asleep. Also remember all babies are different. I work with a women whos child, in her words "never slept". It wasnt until she was almost 1 year did she finally start sleeping "better" and would only wake up once. She tried everything and anything. When my daughter would keep me up at all hours of the night I would just pray for strength and just know that the crying and the waking up at night will NOT last forever. Cherish the moments the best you can even if you are sleep deprived, because he/she will grow up and you will not be able to cradle anymore. Many Blessings to you!

Hey -
My son was 4 months old when I trained him to sleep by himself and this is what I did:
1. Put him down awake.
2. He started crying. I left the room for 5 minutes and then went back in and talked to him and told him he was okay, he was fine and then I left the room again.
3. For 20 minutes, I went in every 5 minutes.
4. Then, I went in two times after 10 minutes.

Honestly, he was fine after the first night. He cried for 45 minutes that first night and then the next night he whimpered a little bit and he has been sleeping by himself since then. One of the key things that I read in regards to this was to NOT pick them up or touch them- only talk to them to reassure them that they are okay.

With my daughter, it was an entirely different story. She would go to bed by herself and go to sleep, but she constantly woke up during the night and cried for me to come and get her. Finally, when she was a year old, I just could not take the lack of sleep any more and I let her seriously cry it out. It took hours that night that I finally was DONE. She pretty much cried most of the night. She has not cried since that night though and she has slept through the night since then.

Good luck - you can do it. But, I think the key is to be strong about it. If you break down and go in and start holding and rocking, I don't think they will learn to sleep by themselves.

The other thing that I have heard about for helping children learn to sleep by themselves is to do the same routine in regards to putting them down, but don't leave the room. Just sit in a rocking chair and encourage them to know that you are there and that they are safe - but don't pick them up. As they get used to going to sleep on their own, you cut down on the time that you stay in the room. Say it takes 45 minutes the first night, then maybe a week later you stay in the room only 40 minutes.

-L.

4 months is too young. Baby 411 that recommends CIO sleep training recommends not letting them cry for longer than 10 minutest 4 months. They also recommend soothing by holding, and then, after a total of 30 minutes, doing whatever is necessary to getting the baby to sleep. Then, at 5 months, you can try real CIOing.

I honestly don't CIO. We held our son when he woke while he cried till 5.5 months, and then I pick him up still calm, and then rub his back if necessary. They do learn how to self-sooth between 5-6 months. Give it time and she will learn. Right now it sounds like you are torturing her and yourself.

You need to gradually teach her to sleep without the boob.

4 months is very young to try any kind of sleep training. At that age they don't understand that you are coming back in the morning (haven't established any concept of object permanence yet). Pediatricians are not sleep experts, my son's straight up told me that in medical school they spend about an hour talking about infant sleep. They just pass on information they have collected from other parents throughout their years as doctors. My suggestion would be to wait until she's at least 6 months to try again-- it didn't work for my babe until he was about 10 months though. There are a lot of handy tips online (no-cry sleep solutions) that may work for your daughter a lot better, if not to get her to sleep ALL night but at least for her to sleep on her own. Good luck!

I cannot believe anyone would reccommend such a thing. She needs you and reasurance. Maybe you are putting her down for the night too early. What does crying it out teach her-that you are not available and no one hears or cares? I wonder what others are saying about this.
I would wait a few months. Also have you tried a 2 ring sling and carry her a lot during the day near your heart. Babies are happier if held close a few hours a day. Food is not the answer yet-she is too young until about 11 months for cereal or solids. Be patient-this too shall pass.

So thats what its called! Ok so right after my baby was born I did a lot of traveling with her. We were gone for about 2 weeks, every month for the first 6 months. When we stopped traveling she was really fussy in her crib and slept better in the swing or bouncey seat. When my baby turned 8mo she decided she hated the crib. The ped told me to let her cry it out. She said do it at naps and at night time, and to stop holding her while she slept. I let my kid cry for an hour and a half one day and I got so PO'd (partly cause I had a headache and I felt like a horrible mother, but mostly because they swore it would work) I had to pick her up and stop the screaming (mind you this was after about a week and a half of trying this method). When I went back to the ped I asked her how long do I let her cry and the ped literally told me....until she stops. I was so upset. She never wore herself out. I never wanted to co-sleep, but I really didn't have another option, and the poor boyfriend was pushed to the couch. My friend told me to put her crib matress next to our matress on the floor and surround it with pillows, that way if she wakes up just to reach my hand down to her and pat her to sleep. Our place was too small to do this, but I often wondered if it would work. When she was stable enough to walk, she got her own bed, and now sleeps in it everynight with no problems. I feel your pain. Good Luck!

Elizabeth Pantley's "The No Cry Sleep Solution" has some great advice on getting your child to sleep without crying it out. We used some of the suggestions with my daughter who was a "night nurser" for a while. It took longer than the 3 days that the "Cry It Out" proponents mention. However, it was just a week or two, with no crying it out either. Sometimes, the quickest solution isn't always the right one. Just go with what your heart is leading you to do, but I truly don't believe that letting a child cry it out is your only option. There are more gentle (albeit a little more time consuming) options out there. Good luck!

I have a couple of suggestions for you. I am not familiar with any particular parenting technique, but I can tell you what we did with my son which seemed to work.

First of all, if you're going to do this, don't hold her while she naps. She will not be able to learn to sleep on her own at night if she naps in your arms.

Start a bedtime routine and ALWAYS do it. For our son, we take a bath, read a story, sing songs, and then put him down. Once your daughter learns the routine (and she'll learn it quickly), she'll start to feel tired in the middle of your routine, and that helps!

I would continue to swaddle if that helps your daughter to sleep. My son needed to be swaddled to sleep until he was almost 6 months old. As long as your daughter isn't rolling over onto her tummy and unable to roll back over, there is no reason not to swaddle her if it helps.

You might want to try to put your daughter down after you've rocked her to sleep. She may not be ready to learn to sleep on her own. If you are determined, though, always put your daughter down when she is, as we called it, "blinky blinky." Feed her, sing to her, and rock her until she is NEARLY asleep. Don't put her down in the crib wide awake just yet. She isn't too young for that per se, but sounds like she isn't ready for that just yet. If she falls asleep in your arms, wake her slightly (you'll probably do this when you put her in the crib anyway!) It will be sooo much easier for her to fall asleep if she's already most of the way there.

Once you put your daughter to bed, leave your arms around her while she is in the crib and cuddle her. What wakes her is probably the sense of abandonment when you put her down, and then leaving. So put her in the crib and leave your arms around her for a couple of minutes, then ease away. This really helped my son in his first couple of months.

Does she take a paci? I know this is controversial, but you might consider introducing it. My son uses his paci only to sleep, and it has been a godsend.

Instead of going into the room and patting your daughter every 15 minutes, you might actually go in every 5. If that doesn't help, then when you go in every 10-15, pick her up and rock her to help her calm down again. Don't rock her to sleep, but if she is truly screaming and not just fussing, she is not going to put herself to sleep. Calm her down and then put her back down. If this doesn't help after a couple of days, you might give it up, but I would at least try it. I can't listen to my baby scream that long, either.

Finally, and as a last resort, have you considered moving your daughter's bed into your room? To see whether this would help, you might try sleeping in her room once or twice and she if she is more easily calmed when you're in the room, even if you aren't interacting with her. You don't need to be a co-sleeper. You could try instead a bassinet or moving her crib into your room.

Good luck.