Very Frustrated Mom

#1. google hyposensory deficit disorder and see if anything looks familiar.

#2. buy the flushable wipes

#3. get a sticker chart

#4. have her clean up the mess - even if nothing else works, that way you're not dealing with that aspect of it.

S.

My daughter had this problem too with number 2. It wasnt laziness. Just hard to get it all. I got her the flushable wipes so it would be easier on her to wipe and it has worked wonderfully! Maybe try the wipes and see if they work for her. Good Luck : )

Hi K., it's a fact of life... some of us have messier poo than others. It is VERY likely that she is wiping but just doesn't get it all off. Try buying her some baby wipes that she can keep right next to the toilet. Ask her to wipe herself and look at the paper, if the paper is yucky she needs to use a wipe and try again. Explain to her that sometimes she may need to wipe 2 or 3 times before the paper comes out clean.

Also, you could tell her if she works really hard to stay clean for a whole week you will take her to pick out some new pretty panties.

K.,
Sometimes it is hard being a mom, especially if our kids are different from us. I think it would help if you stopped focusing on the problem. If you are making a big deal about it then you could be creating a power struggle. This is something your daughter CAN control, no matter how much you belittle her. On an unconscious level she may be refusing to do what you want because it IS something she can control, so what you can do is change those dynamics. I'd suggest you back off. Don't make her feel bad. Be sympathetic. I know sometimes it is tough, but try not to mock her or be sarcastic. Let her help you with the laundry, but don't make it a punishment. Very kindly tell her you are sorry she is having trouble with this. Tell her you think her bottom will feel so nice and clean when she learns to take her time and wash properly. But let her know you are willing to be patient. Maybe even offer an incentive when she goes a whole week clean. Be positive, don't give up, and last...let your little girl be who she is, which is not necessarily like you or your other children. Try to be okay with that. Not always an easy task!

I have a 3rd grade girl and also had this problem, but last year. My solution? When I find the poop stains in her panties, I have a special scrub brush and a squirt bottle of shout, and SHE must scrub the panties. I will not do it. She thinks it's gross (naturally) but I think it makes her drive home the idea of having to wipe better. I keep the scrubber and squirt bottle in the laundry room, I never shame her or call attention to the act - just make her do it discreetly. I haven't had the poop stain issue this whole school year yet.

On the other issues, laziness & not cleaning up, well - are you sure you're not describing my daughter??? ha ha seriously they sound so alike. I have just realized that she's a different personality but she has to abide the same rules as the rest of her siblings: clean room or no playtime. I make them get it all the way clean twice a week and just step over the mess the rest of the week. That way it doesn't get TOO out of hand, but also I'm not harping on them every single night. If my daughter whines that she can't get it done, then I explain that she can take a break, read for 10 minutes, whatever but there will be no playtime (sometimes, no snack either) until the room is done. Sometimes I wake her up early in the AM to do it. She gets very upset but I just try to explain, I am only asking her to pick up HER stuff, no one elses. And if she can't do it, then don't make the mess in the first place. We're still working on it but we're making progress.

Good luck to you too!

Hi K.,

I understand your frustration as I too have the Oscar and Felix syndrome in my home and I'm a Felix type and thus also can't grok why a child would want to be so untidy.
What helped us the most with this specific situation is putting the flushable wipes in the bathroom as that makes the job easier. I don't think spanking will work at all and I personally feel that's really bad for self esteem as it really makes your daughter feel that there's something wrong with her. The reality is that she's totally normally, just not a neat and tidy girl.

One suggestion I have is to make her clean her panties (rinse them in the sink with soap and water) before putting in the laundry - it is her mess and she should have to clean it up. I have a similar problem with my oldest son (whose very tall) missing the toilet. I make him clean the bathroom floor around the toilet. It honestly hasn't stopped him. So, I think you may well have it easier with your daughter. When she starts to spend nites at friends, changes close for PE, etc., she will become more self aware and realize this is something she should take care of herself.

And, one final note, please don't let her know that you feel she is lazy - she's just more of a type B personality and there are qualities to this personality that should be nurtured. For example, I bet she's great around younger kids and likely has alot of patience. Those are also exceptional virtues, just like being conscientious about homework and keeping your room tidy. Believe me it is night and day between my two boys - there is stuff all over my older son's room, I can't remember the last time I washed his sheets (I will reach my threshold very soon and he won't even notice when he has clean sheets). My younger son has his own dust buster, dusting wipes, he vaccuums his room every week, brings his sheets to the laundry room on his own, etc.

I'm wondering if she has any sensory issues. For some kids they can't feel it when they have food on thier face or poo on thier bottom. Sensory Integration Dysfunction is a common issue for lots of kids. Not saying this is your daughter's issue, just something to consider.

I know this must be very frustrating. Please let your daughter know that you love her and you are on her side. She does not need to know that you think she is lazy or that you do not have a high opinion of her. She has a different personality type.

I would get the wipes for her. We use those at our house and personally I like them better as well.

Also, once she has a group of friends who hang out, begin sleepover, she will realize that she needs to clean up like her friends or she will be ridiculed!! Peer Pressure is a good thing sometimes!!

Hang in there Mom, we all go through the tough times with children. They grow up TOO fast.

TF

My 7 year old has had the same issue, but has thankfully lately been getting better. Judging by my experience, I wouldn't say it's laziness. It is a hard-to-reach area for little ones & a pretty cumbersome procedure. I was getting frustrated with my daughter & she was uncomfortable when she didn't wipe properly. So for a few times I had to sit in the bathroom with her & talk her through wiping properly; I had to tell her to look at the toilet paper to make sure there was nothing on it & keep wiping until it's clean.

Good luck! I don't know your daughter, ofcourse, but I'm betting this doesn't mean she's lazy. Just a kid who needs a bit more help wiping her tushie! :)

you should buy those kiddie flushable wipes and put them in the bathroom. there is nothing wrong with you showing her how to do it at first and watching to make sure she does it right. hopefully, it will become a habit. if not, you will probably have to help her until it does. some kids just need more of a push than others. i have a friend who had the same problem with her daughter. she is ten now and still uses the wipes!!

My daughter had a problem with it from about 5 years old to around 10 years old. I bought her wipes that we left in her bathroom for her to use. She liked them because they smelled good and she would pick out different wipes each time she ran out, so that she could try different scents. She got really good at cleaning herself at home because everytime she would go potty, I would pretend to smell her behind (through her jeans). I would always say, "Ooooh, you smell like flowers" or "Wow you have a lemon booty" or whatever the scent was. She liked the immediate positive attention that she got from being a good girl and whiping. I still noticed stuff on her panties that probably happended when she wasn't at home. Just use allot of spray and wash and do her laundry separate from everyone else's. What else can you do? She will grow out of it like my daughter did. Just be patient and learn to work around what you can't control.

My son is in counceling and does this same thing. With that being said, if that is her only "big" issue, I don't think you should seek counseling. (We are there with many, many issues) I agree with a lot being said already. We provide the flushable wipes and we tell him to revisit the bathroom when he walks out to wipe again. Instead of saying 'we know you didn't wipe' its 'please go back in and wipe some more'. Takes the humiliation out of it. Spanking doesn't usually work. Especially if your child is defiant. Then it does become a power struggle. It may be partly the age, too. And another mom has such a great point with you and her having different personalities and that being a struggle! I so feel your pain. My almost 10 yr old still eats his boogers and I want to vomit because it grosses me out so much. He thinks nothing of it! As well as the whole poop and wipe issue. And I hate socks being balled up in the laundry and inside out pants and and..and.....lol!! I have had to work on myself about accepting this child for the differences we have. Which made me part of the problem! But I think we will try making him clean his undies, too. We have not visited that avenue. If you find something that ultimately 'cures' the situation, please let me know. We still deal with it, but my 'issue' with it has lessened by not getting so worked up about it. Best of luck

Before you get frustrated trying anything else, consider making an appointment for her to go to Dr. John Baker; he is a pediatric digestive health doctor that I take my own daughter to. Have him check her out to be sure her system is running properly, and then he can talk to her about the problem. He can assiste you directing your next move, if you ask him to. He is located in Plano, and he has an office in Grapevine as well.

K.,

When I was younger, my friend's sister did the same thing. She wouldn't even flush the toilet - and there would be her poop in the toilet with no toilet paper. It was an odd site!

I would get a stain stick, put your daughter's name in permanent marker on there, and make her rub it on her dirty underwear. If nothing else, it just might make her see how nasty it is... (no judgement! :))

You might want to try taking her to the doctor, so her doctor can explain why she needs to wipe 100% of the time!

Good Luck,
E.

Counseling sounds like a very good idea. Perhaps family counseling. It sounds like your older daughter has very low self-esteem and has given up trying to compete with your youngest for your approval. I think you and your older daughter have a personality clash, and need to learn how to relate to each other effectively before her self-esteem is so permanently damaged that she makes very bad choices in her life. That's the path she is on right now. Your critisism and punishment of her hygeine issues, in particular is obviously not changing her wiping habits and is probably doing more damage than good to your relationship with her. I'm not saying you are wrong to expect her to wipe well but you need a new way to handle that. I think that her sloppiness is the symptom of a larger problem and it's time to address the larger problem. Please seek counseling for your family. At this point I doubt that you will get through to her any other way. I wish your family the best in finding harmony between all family members.
Sincerely,
E.

Dear K.,

Counseling may be exactly what you and your daughter need, because it sounds like there's probably something causing your daughter's behavior (or lack thereof!). Hopefully, it's something that can be cleared up in only a few sessions, but it's better to deal with whatever it is NOW, rather than when your daughter is older.

I've said a prayer for both of you.

Deb D

I am going through this with my 3rd grade son. We just had a very serious talk about how God only gives you one body and you need to take care of it.

The wipes are great but do NOT flush them! They say they are flushable but we just paid our plumber a fortune to remove tons of them from our pipes after the huge backup we had!

K., please get this precious girl counseling BEFORE these problems escalate. Her self-esteem is obviously very low and the chances of this situation improving on its own is slim to none. Punishment will not work (as you have already figured out) and she is approaching her teen years. Please get her some professional help!

I know this sounds gross, but I have one child who has the driest poop. I swear it dries on his rear immediately. When he was toilet training, I had to stick with wet wipes for him because toilet paper just could NOT get it all off. I keep a box of them in each bathroom still. Maybe that's part of her problem.

Oh, and I know you're upset, but I had to laugh at your post. I have a child AND a husband like that! My other kids are the opposite, so that brings me some "peace" in the the clean freak arena of my brain. But I'm telling you, that "lazy" personality is so peaceful as well. They have such patience. They forgive easily. They don't hold grudges. They roll with the punches easier. Me and my type A kids are the complete opposite and it aint always pretty =)

Good luck! It's so hard being the mom, huh? Best wishes.

I would tell your daughter that if she doesn't clean herself well, she'll get a very raw and painful bottom. Then say no more. Let it happen. I found that with my girls, the hardest part was letting the consequences fall where they fall. She'll learn from the pain. Pain was my oldest daughter's only teacher. My words were just wind in her ears. She hasn't changed a whole lot all these years later. It's a personality thing.

I've never met your daughter, but have worked with children who sound similar. She is most likely doing the best she understands. Some of these children have issues with auditory processing and also difficulty focusing to complete tasks. She may have some hyposensitivity so that she does not feel uncomfortable with being unwiped.

These are issues you can help her resolve. You are right that she doesn't seem to "get it" like your younger daughter. But she could with some attention to her issues.

www.parentswithpurpose.com

make her hand wash her underwear in the bathtub. after several times of doing this, she might get the hint to "whipe" herself. as far making her clean up her room, etc... remove all items from her room with the exception of a cover/pillow with case. until she can maintain those two items... then gradually add things to her room.

I have to agree with one of the other posters...cronic constipation can cause this to happen as well. Maybe she is wiping but just not thouroughly enough. Maybe she needs you to show her how. When she is around home and she has to potty you could make it a game for her and have a timer in the bathroom for wiping. Maybe have her wipe for a certain amount of time you deem reasonable. Reward her as you might have when she was in potty training. If this does continue I would talk to her peditrician. She might have some bowel issues. A counselor could be necessary, but I'd try some of the other things first.
I'm sure she will come around...just try to remain as patient as you can. I really think it is just a matter of her not knowing how to wipe.

You have been received a lot of great responses but I wanted to add something that hasn't been mentioned. Is there any possibility that she could be constipated? Chronic constipation can make it look like they haven't wiped when if fact they very well may have. They end up with "skid marks" in their undies. It is also hard to determine constipation....some kids are constipated even when their diets are rich in fiber and they drink a lot of water. A lot of kids this age are so busy that they begin a cycle of holding it which leads to constipation. My daughter has very serious chronic constipation and we have to stay vigilant to make sure she is going every day. Just something to check.

Being a mom sure is difficult sometimes and when it is your oldest, it is especially hard because you don't have any experience to rely on. I don't think I would punish or get angry with a child unless I ruled out any medical issues first. I would make an appointment with her pedi. and if it isn't a medical problem then he/she could speak to your daughter and help you come up with a plan to correct the issue. Good luck and I hope you find the patience you need to get through this trying situation!

How about getting her to use wet wipes? that might just work.
there is no need for counseling here. Do not make a child think that she has a problem which isn't there. it is just carelessness.

I really feel for you. There was a cute very dramatic child that loved to entertain us in Girl Scouts years ago. She smelled all the time. The kids never wanted her around. She was fat and had curly red hair. We found out the mom even worked at a doctors office. Even once when we went swimming and got out of the water the kids wrapped up in their towels to head home and all the way home she smelled in my car. The leader tried to tell her in private that she needed to use better hygene but then she told all the girls like it was a joke. I do not have answers but we always thought maybe she had infections that her body smelled like pee. Also mom worked long hours and she ate a lot of fast foods. Just can not understand. Would like to hear from others on this as well. G. W

Hmmm...thought this was a boy thing...I've heard of two other friends whos boys did this...ours did too around age 8/9. We told them we would tell their friends and family...not very helpful but for some reason it worked...much luck. We got those wet wipes too that are made for the restroom...

I had a similar issue with my son. We started using flushable wipes and that helped. His room is not clean but he gets very upset if his hands are dirty. So the wet wipes made it easier to clean. I also threw away a couple of his underwear that he really liked. When I replaced I just bought the plain white ones. I warned him first and then followed through the next couple of times. That coupled with the wipes fixed the issue.

I was also going to suggest the moist wipes. In addition, the homework may not be laziness either. Many kids with ADD, the attention deficit without the hyperactivity, seem like kids that won't cooperate, etc. but it is really the condition. If she is smart verbally but has problems with reading, pen to paper, homework, you should really talk to her teacher to determine whether she has behaviors that are common to ADD but often get overlooked because the kid isn't bouncing off the walls.

My daughter has ADD, she couldn't read a word at the end of 2nd grade but was uber smart and had a very well-developed vocabulary. She was finally old enough to rule out other things, she was diagnosed, is treated with appropriate medication, and a junior now she is in AP and honors classes. When she was in 2nd grade I almost went insane every night with the homework. No matter what I did, it didn't help.

My daughter exhibits many "lazy" behaviors but I have to remind myself that even with the meds, part of it is the ADD, so literally when you tell your daughter do number 3, by the time she looks down or whatever, she may not really remember what you said, hence she sits and looks like she is doing nothing. Their brains are processing so much information at once that they can't tune in on the important thing like you can. The t.v., the sibling, the dog, you, the work, they all register at the same level while your other child would be able to tune out everything else and focus on what you said.

Good luck and just one more thing. My mother is anal retentive, perfectionist, borderline OCD probably. I am laid back, can function in chaos, etc. We are polar opposites on many, many things but my mother is the type of person that thinks her way of doing things is the only way of doing things. There IS more than one way to do things so try to work with the way she functions and learns and focus on the end result, not trying to get her to do things the way you do things. That is not to say let her slack, but you two together find the right solutions for her.

If you read the responds I was going to tell you allot of what Kim S. & TC & Susan V. said it my not be a wiping issue! My mother-in-law was always mad at my husband when he was a kid and it turns out he was having a digestive problem and she didn't know about it!

My whole family uses wet wipes, even the adults :). No harm no fail, we are clean. When I potty trained in preschool and even my own kids, I gave them disposable gloves. So they could keep their hands reasonably clean. Constipation might be a problem too.

http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/encopresis
You might want to read this and contact your doctor. She may have encopresis.

Hey K.,
TOTALLY know where you are coming from...going through it right now w/my seven year old (and fyi the only thing that has SORT of worked is to buy flushable wipes and make it a rule that when she goes #2 she uses them)...you've had a million opinions thrown out at you...just remember she is YOUR daughter and you have raised her...you know her personality and what she responds best to. the fact that you described her room, homework, etc. in the same manner just confirms how your little third grader is hard-wired. Do what works best for you and for her. hang in there! i have to push through my daughter's room cleaning, reminding her to wipe (lol), reminding her to please follow the directions on her homework...it's JUST my child's personality! I have found that I have to make some very very set rules like: we vacuum on this day so pick up your toys if you don't want my vacuum to eat them. we wipe with flushable wipes since we don't want to take the time to make sure it's clean:this keeps us from getting yeast infections. and the crazy list goes on. I am more of a free-spirit and don't like having such rigid rules, but, my daughter being more of a procrastinator needs these...it's helped to straighten some things up :o) good luck on clean panties :o)

Dear very frustrated Mom,
We had a similar problem when our boy was about that age. The doctor said he had encopresis - a fancy name for something like constipation on steroids (you can google this if you don't solve your problem with any of the other suggestions)

We had to work on getting his stools to be softer and looser. What fun. Lots of water and fruit!

We also stumbled on the wet wipes idea.

I laughed out loud when I read some of the posts. Brought back memories of some pretty serious frustration!

K. J,

I know several moms have already said this, but I want to reiterate that it could be constipation causing this, in which case, she really isn't aware of it. Even if she is having bowel movements, she could have a build-up of poop in her system that is causing leakage, or her poop could be so dry and hard that it starts to come out before she gets to the potty. It's not a choice, if that's the case! So I hope you will really give this serious consideration and maybe take her to the pediatrician to be checked. If it doesn't seem to be constipation, perhaps hearing about cleanliness from the doctor will make a bigger impact on her and gave more validity to what you've been saying! And the wipes idea is a great one, too.

The other thing I would say is, it is not unusual for kids her age to be "lazy" about homework, etc. Sometimes, regardless of how it looks to our frustrated selves, they are truly overwhelmed with all of our expectations! They just don't always know how to get started or stay on track. I'm learning with my seven year old that I have to really model it and walk through it with her, over and over - "it" being, cleaning/straightening her room, organizing toys and books, getting through all her homework, and putting her clothes and shoes where they belong. Some children just need more hands-on time with this. My girl is very smart, but what that does sometimes is make me expect too much of her. When we finally calm down and talk, I will often realize she truly didn't understand what I was saying, or how to do it. So - saying this as one who needs it, too! - I would just encourage more patience and calmness, less judgmental feelings towards them, and then check into the likelihood of constipation. Also, sometimes we think they are lying when they are just telling us their understanding of reality. I'm not trying to make excuses; this is another thing I've learned the hard way. And I had to learn it, even having studied early childhood in school! Now, she may really be lying, but it's very, very possible that she is telling the truth, in which case, we wind up creating emotional problems for our child if we think of them as lazy and lying. So what was just a physical problem (body isn't working right because of a build-up of poop) becomes a true, psychological issue because of how the parents respond. I say this only because I have been through this, and am still going through it, with my seven year old, who has serious constipation problems. I have often found myself making harsh judgments about her (who sounds a lot like your 3rd grader!) before realizing she needs more time from me, more support and encouragement, and really, more help. Good luck! Meanwhile, Oxy Clean works good on stains. ;)

Peace to you,
S.

(also, a fiber chew or Miralax might be worth using for awhile, to see if it helps)

K.,

I know you have already gotten a lot of advice and I'm probably not going to say a whole lot more than what you have heard, but wanted to add a couple of things. I was amazed at some of the advice that you got and don't agree that you need to seek counseling. Kids this age are really trying to switch from a child to a more mature person and sometimes they don't know how to do that. Sometimes they revert back to things you know they know how to do, like wipe her butt. She could be just wanting some attention. Believe me, they ask for it in all kinds of ways! The constipation problem is something that I would also check out. I would try and take her to the store and let her pick out some wipes or maybe toilet paper she likes. Maybe she's sensitive down there. Maybe let her pick out some body soap and some cute washrags and show her how to wash real good. Letting her wash her own undies might be a good idea too, that way she can see what a mess it is for you.
Good luck with it all and hopefully with all of the advice you got, something will help you get through this!

Hi,

Have you tried to make her clean her own cloth by her hand, like in the tub or outside or in the sink. Tell her that it is very bad bacteria and it is not good for her health, you might want to tell her that you might talk to her school nurse!

K.,

My heart goes out to your innocent little girl. She is suffering from something (I don't know what), but this issue is NOT her fault and it breaks my heart that you are spanking her. Please stop spanking her! Spanking only teaches children that it is okay to hit. Spanking her will NOT help her problem and it will only make her more upset. Spanking is not an effective method. Please take her to some sort of a specialist, like a G.I. or something. If the G.I. turns out to be the wrong kind of doctor, ask the G.I. for suggestions for other specialists. It seems like this will be a lot of trial and error. Keep taking her to specialists until you find the right one. I'm not convinced your daughter needs counseling - just the right specialist.

Hi K.,

I hate to say it, but I think tough love is the only way out of this one. I realise that she is a bit young, and this may seem harsh - but perhaps the only way to truly make her understand her behavior and how it affects you is to have her handwash her own underwear (supervised, obviously) until she stops doing it. She's not the one who has to clean it up, so while I would think that it would be horribly uncomfortable and even smelly - she doesn't care because she's not the one who has to deal with the underwear when it comes off.

And once you get the desired behavior - wiping and cleaning, I would complement, complement, complement to reinforce the good behavior.

The only other thing I could think to do is to start withdrawing privileges (TV, computer, going to friends' houses, etc).

Also, perhaps your GP could explain to her the sanitary and health dangers - infections, rashes, viruses, etc - that she is exposing herself to by not wiping herself properly.

I feel your pain though. My 10 year-old isn't the best at hygiene. When she was younger - 7-8 - I just thought that it was because she was young and didn't want to be bothered about bathing, washing her hair, etc. But even now, sometimes if I don't ask her or tell her to take a bath and wash her hair she doesn't. And I don't understand it because she is such a girlie girl. She loves clothes and dressing up and putting on make-up and walking around in high heels. It seems like bathing and clean hair go hand-in-hand with being a "girlie girl". She is also horrible about cleaning up after herself - and going the extra mile with her schoolwork. She is the sweetest, most sensitive and loving little girl and generally aims to please - but only in the areas that she wants to. I keep hoping that she will grow out of this "lazy" phase and start taking some initiative for herself. There have been some improvements, but it seems like it's taking forever!

Good luck with it. I can't imagine how frustrated you are...

I would warn you to be careful about saying she lies. She may be wiiping and just not getting it all. But do try to believe her

make her wash her own underwear by hand and maybe she'll start wiping.