My sister-in-law "Sue" won't let my 12-year-old niece "Kiley" wear girl clothes. This has been going on since infancy, but now is getting to be really strange now that Kiley is entering middle school, puberty, etc.
This family makes decent money, but is very frugal about day-to-day expenditures - they choose to spend their disposable income on major family adventure trips - Iceland, Easter Island, Antarctica, etc. The activities their family does are also pretty adventure-driven - scouts, martial arts, mountaineering, etc. I'm sure spending money on clothes is a factor in Sue's choices for Kiley, but I think it's also a mindset that plays down anything remotely feminine as being unpractical. Sue only shops at Goodwill, Salvation Army, and garage sales. This is not the problem. Certainly, even those clothing venues offer something in pink (or at least not camo or black), or something that even is remotely feminine for a 12 year old girl. Sue also forces Kiley to wear the hand-me-downs of her 14-year old brother. Example, she attended a pretty formal important family event today wearing her mom's hand-me-down khakis that were rolled at the waist and cuffs because they were at least 4 sizes too big, and her brother's hand me down oversize Hawaiian shirt. Her mom wore a conservative dress, her dad and brother dressed in casual, but appropriate clothes for the occasion. My poor niece looked terribly awkward and uncomfortable. This summer, Kiley didn't have a proper swim suit and was at a pool party in her mom's hand-me-down bottoms tied at the waist to make it fit, and a boys black t-shirt. She said her mom won't let her get a swim suit. It's frivilous and unnecessary. We live in Southern California, for goodness sake!
On the one hand, Sue says that she doesn't value clothes and what other people think about what her family wears. To a certain extent, I agree - I don't want my daughter making choices based on trendy brands and based on her friends' choices either. And I think SOME of the choices available to tween girls are absolutely horrible - super short shorts, tiny tank tops, bright pink sequins and glitter! However, Kiley does care about looking like a GIRL. She begs me, and my other sister-in-law to get her clothes for Christmas and birthday. If we do, her mom either won't let Kiley open the gifts, or she'll make Kiley take the clothes back. I'm not talking about anything revealing or sexualized or inappropriate, either. I'm talking about a t-shirt with a flower on it instead of a ninja, and chinos instead of oversized cargo pants from her brother.
I recognize, I'm not Kiley's mom. I'm not the parent, and I can't raise other people's kids. I worry, considering Kiley is in 6th grade, that how her mother forces her to dress is borderline abusive. And I don't think Sue realizes the considerable harm she's doing by not allowing Kiley to feel good about herself, her figure, about being a GIRL. Should I say something to her mom, or to her dad? How can I continue to be supportive of my niece, while at the same time, not overstepping boundaries with her mom? Or is this something where I should just mind my own business, and really, truly put the whole - "let's value what's on the inside" - mindset into practice?
Thanks, all of you for the responses! I needed a wise sounding board, and you came through! It's not about pink, or super "girlie" clothes either - it's about making sure clothes fit, and that she's able to develop a sense of what's appropriate/inappropriate, and also gets a voice to decide what trends are/aren't good for herself. My niece is a really, really good kid. She's kind with her younger cousins, gets great grades in school, does girl scouts, youth group, mixed martial arts, etc. I really want her to feel great, look great, and be able to avoid just one more trauma in middle school of fitting in.
Also to clarify: It's my husband's brother's wife. So maybe I can get my husband to talk to his brother - & say something like: you need to intervene here - be a dad to your daughter, and figure out what's going on with your wife. My sister-in-law has been diagnosed as chronically depressed, and I think she's on medication, but don't know how much support she gets day-to-day, and how the dynamic is within their home on an ongoing basis. Will keep you posted. Thx!
Like you say there are girlie things at thrift stores. There is more to this than meets the eye.
Was Sue possibly molested as a teen and is afraid the same may befall her daughter?
Since she makes her take back the clothing she receives as gifts, this is definitely not about the money. She flat out doesn't want her too look like a girl.
You should totally say something. Let her know what she's doing is wrong. Let her know that she's setting her daughter up for years of teasing and bullying in school.
Talk to her dad.
Not normal.
Not logical.
It's not the money and the not opening & returning of gifts makes this clear: it's moms issue, not your nieces.
IMO? This is borderline neglectful/abusive.
Sorry the mom sounds like she needs some mental help. I would usually say - not your place...but this kid is SCREAMING for help. She's asked you and her other aunt outright for clothes...and yet mom forces her to return or not open???
Why on earth would a mother FORCE her daughter to return clothes or NOT open a box??
WHY would she want to put her daughter in a bathing suit that does NOT fit her??
What does your brother say about all of this??
Why does it seem like Sue is upset she has a daughter and wants to punish her for being a girl??
I'd talk to my brother. Then I might call the school and ask for assistance?? I don't like getting officials involved but there are times when it is warranted. The mom needs help. And the daughter is screaming for it...
Good luck! You are not in an easy situation!!
With your update, this depression she suffers from can also be a huge sign that something happened to your SIL at some point and she is either in denial, afraid the same will happen to her daughter, or she has blocked out the memory but it is under the surface about to come out.
Your BIL needs to be given a heads up, his wife's mental illness is now interfering with their daughters Natural maturity..
Yikes, SIL has issues. Big ones.
BIL needs to be spoken to and this situation discussed with him, at least to make him aware that this is not considered, "Typical behaviors for anybody".
Now that niece is maturing, this is the time for her to start finding who she is. She will need guidance, but to not allow her to keep the gifts of clothing, even when your niece loves the clothes is a huge Red Flag.
Did you happen to get a photo of niece at the event? I would show it to your brother/BIL and tell him, this was just not normal. The girl, should have at least been able to wear clothing that fits her body.
I know moms that are very "Earthy" and are themselves not into dressing "girlie", but not one of them objects to their daughters being girlie.
I recall a friend/neighbor, they probably had more money than all of us, but she also shopped at thrift stores like Goodwill etc. But she totally allowed her daughter to pick and choose whatever the child wanted.
The daughter went to school in what a lot of us would consider "party attire" and that was fine.
Please, please intervene on behalf of your niece. Please point out that now more than just you are noticing something is not right.
I completely agree it sounds like SIL has had something happen to her that she is now projecting on niece. This is not nieces problem, this is SIL problem. She needs professional help.
99% of the time my response would be 'not your kid, butt out.' but you clearly understand this, and this situation really is weird.
i would definitely speak to the dad if you feel you can't get anywhere with the mom. obviously it's no good just to buy her the clothes if her mom won't let her wear them, and you can't encourage her to be deceptive.
the mom's philosophy is great, but not carried to this extreme. maybe if you can approach her kindly and not make her feel judged, you can present it as 'you don't want to create a backlash and have her dress like miley cyrus when she escapes from you' rather than 'you're making your daughter feel like a freak, ya wacko.'
not that you were advocating the latter. but it would be hard not to let a little of it slip out!
poor kid. i hope you make some headway.
khairete
S.
I would speak up. This has gotten to the point where she's not allowing her child to pick out reasonable and appropriate clothing for someone her age and gender. You can value thrift without devaluing your child, which I think is what she is doing. You might also tell Kiley to talk to the school counselor or a trusted teacher about how she feels. The fact that her mother won't allow anyone else to buy clothes or won't allow her daughter to keep nice, appropriate, clothing sounds abusive, IMO. It sounds like she is threatened by her daughter and wants to squash any hint of femininity under the guise of thrift. What does the child's father have to say about all of it? I agree that it sounds like the mother has a problem and needs to get help for the child's sake. If the common relative is the brother, I would talk to him, perhaps you and the other SIL together. She does NOT value who her child is on the inside if she won't allow any expression of that value on the outside.
While it's great that the family is giving these kids family adventures and not placing undue emphasis on superficial things like designer or over-sexualized clothes, this is way overboard. I'm not sure the definition of "like a girl" is universal - I think pink clothing is not a requirement, and neither are skirts. However, this girl is not be allowed any choices whatsoever, which means she will be unable to learn to make decisions as an adult. Forcing her to wear cleanly inappropriate clothing (oversized khakis and a Hawaiian shirt for a formal event) means that her daughter is clearly unable to wear appropriate clothing for a job interview, a part-time job, a school dance, or a funeral. Her mother is pushing her very hard toward total and complete rebellion, and essentially defying her to conceal appropriate clothing under her ridiculous outfits. By setting her daughter up for ridicule by others, Mom is ensuring that her daughter will resent her forever (and no, I don't think parenthood is a popularity contest, but still….) and is very likely pushing her towards the revealing and sexy clothes she abhors. The mother is not reasonable, and she is using this child to promote an agenda no matter how much the child is humiliated or bullied or pitied by her peers.
And if the son is allowed to wear things like a ninja emblem or cargo pants which are trendy, forcing the daughter to wear the same things and have no allowance for her own individuality is really abusive. And counter-productive. She's also going to fall prey to the first person (probably a man) who allows her to "be a woman" and who will finance a wardrobe, whether or not that man is a good influence in any other way. She is growing up knowing that she is not as important as her brother who at least gets some opportunity to wear acceptable clothing. She will resent him and it will affect her relationships as well as her ability to raise self-sufficient and proud children. It will backfire on Mom and create exactly what she is most afraid of.
I don't know what you can do about it unless/until the child has such terrible experiences/performance in school that the teachers and staff get involved because the girl cannot focus on her studies because she is totally preoccupied, or has no social life because she is totally humiliated. If the child's father is at all reasonable, maybe you could take some photos at school and family events and show how much this poor child stands out. For her wellbeing, her chance to mature into some decision-making, and her safety, he should intervene and at least arrange for some family counseling. There are plenty of trendy but sensible outfits that can be put together at thrift shops but the child needs help doing that.
Wow. I have never heard of something like this. Her mother is obviously working out her personal issues through her daughter. Not allowing her to dress like a girl, or however she wants (within tasteful reason), is harmful and wrong. And I agree that it's borderline abusive.
Yes, you should say something. If she won't even allow you to buy the girl something she wants, she has a serious problem. Poor girl.
That's so sad. And the mother is hypocritical if she sometimes wears dresses. I would definitely have your husband talk to his brother. If that doesn't work, you say something as a female to him. Tell him pretty soon she's going to be scarred for life. And when she's older, she may overcompensate by dressing extra slutty. Try to scare him...
This is abusive. You have no idea the trip she's laying on her daughter when no one else is around. I wish I had advice for you, I find this post really, really sad.
She needs a mental health evaluation.
In my opinion, this has nothing to do with being thrifty or teaching a lesson on the unimportance of material things. Something is up with the mom and this will only get worse. I feel bad for your niece. Sounds VERY similar to my upbringing :(
Have you tried talking to the dad? This is so extreme. I feel badly for her too and I don't even know her.
Couldn't you go clothes shopping with her a couple times a year and get her a few things?
A modest one piece suit or tankini would be fine, a few pairs of pants that fit her and sit at her waist (not low rise), and a few polo shirts that fit her, and maybe her own underwear (nothing sexy - I'm guessing she might wear her Mom's hand me downs in that area too) would probably make her very happy.
I'm not sure if this would make SIL blow up but if it's not costing her anything she can't complain about that.
What does your brother have to say about this? I agree this mom is way over the top and it sounds like a mental disorder or some issues from her own past that she is projecting on her daughter. Sounds like everyone else has appropriate clothing except the daughter. I don't think you can talk to your SIL but I suggest you have a heart to heart with your brother and let him know this bothers your niece and it has gone too far. There is not reason for her not to have non revelaing but female specific clothing that FITS.
Whether she's your brother's wife or husband's sister, I would talk to that person about the situation before trying to help in any other way. He might have insight into some family dynamic that will let you know why your sister-in-law acts this way. Who knows, maybe the niece prefers that type of clothing but puts the 'blame' on mom because she doesn't want to explain herself. It could be that her version of modesty is different than yours, and pink isn't the issue at all.
If you find out it's really as cut-and-dry as you believe and the mom is just a wacko, then yes, try to talk to her (don't call her a wacko though, lol). Just mention that Kiley said she wants new clothes and you'd like to get some for her, then ask if you can take her shopping. Just say you think it would be fun. If you can't take her shopping physically, take her online shopping by calling her up and picking our clothes over the phone together (send her some links to stores or vice versa).
