Ok so i'm seriously at a loss. i'm seeking legal matters on most of this, part of which my dd (8) wants visitation lessoned because she is tired of being around her dad and his wife constantly fighting. Christmas day while my dh was gone getting the skids it was just me and her for about an hour. here's the convo:
dd: mom what can be done to get less visitation with dad?
me: what kind of visitation do you want?
dd: probably every other weekend all year including the holidays or no more than 2 days at a time with dad and smom even in the summer time.
me: why?
dd: because i'm tired of being around all the stupid fighting, when nana picks me up i really hope i'm stayin the night with her, but when she takes me to dad's i kinda just want to come back home
me: have you talked to your dad about it
dd: no
me: why not? he needs to hear this from you not me.
dd: because last time i tried i got in trouble by him and smom and i don't want to break his heart. but i dont' want to be there if they are going to keep fighting
there was more to the convo but this is all i REALLY remember word for word and the most important parts. i have her in counseling to determine if the fighting IS causing my dd unnecessary stress and to find out how severe it is or if it's just me being picky, or dd having a hard time differientiating debating vs fighting (minus the cussing at eachother). per her reports and ex admiting, they've gotten pretty bad...cussing at eachother, and even ex pulling his hand back like he's gonna hit his wife but turns and hits the wall (there's a hole to prove it and he admited to that) and at the time of this i wasn't smart enough to call cops and get a report. i know anger managment isn't a bad idea, and someone in paticular wants me to have her talk to a judge (when the time comes) so he can hear from HER just how bad it is, and what SHE wants to do. She's also confided in my dh about it, and not wanting all the time he has granted. HOWEVER, i'm not sure i want to put her in this situatation (talking to the judge). she is soo afraid of getting her dad in trouble, cause she's heard horror stories of a child talking to a judge, and her claim helped put dad in the slammer.
i don't want it to get to where her dad is limited in her life, (my dad was absent, so I'm very cautious about decisions that affect her directly with her dad-this being one of the first) the counselor is very aware of all of it, and she's going to try (upon my req) to determine if my dd's fighting is actually causing her emotional distress or if it's just her being used to my dh and i getting along well, or not.
suggestions?
i've told her it may not be such a bad idea to break his heart since it breaks her heart to be around this, course she said, but 2 wrongs don't make a right...of course...just what mommy teachs her. dunno, need to find a different approach for her
hazel-yes i've talked to my dh about it and he is more than willing to go into counseling for her benefit, he doesnt' feel WE need to but if it will help us help her through it he will cooperate. her smom on the other hand...i honestly think her history of failing to cooperate on someone else's terms WILL result in them divorcing (fine by me) or he will lose his rights to her (he's told me that he's told his wife that her actions are going to make him lose our daughter....he's right)
kimberly, i HAVE tried talking to him about it but because it's ME talking, to him it's out of spite towards his wife, whom i've never liked or gotten along with EVER. when i do intervene without a neutral party, it makes it worse for my daughter in the long run...it was getting BAD. i did call DHS (like CPS) on him back in spring time this year not only because they were fighting but because he was allowing his wife to STILL shower with my (at the time 7 year old daughter cause it was easier for her, and when i asked him about it and asked him to stop because she's too old for that (even with her own mother)...his response was "she wont stop"). They admited to all my allogations to DHS and at my request suggested that we all go to counseling in addition to them going to parenting and marriage counseling-i've told my attorney i would like proof of a SERIES or ask that they go to a SERIES, not just ONE measley class. well, because his insurance SUCKS i'm JUST getting that ball rolling cause i'm the only 1 who will make the full effort for stuff like this (really) AND he didn't agree and at first wouldnt' agree and sign (we have joint custody-so i HAVE to have his signature)...he FINALLY agreed to letting dd go and to go with her, but that's as far as it's gotten. o and the showering issue stopped, but the fighting is slowly coming back, think i'll look into a private investigator
i've told my attorney and the counselor that i wont approach him about it again because it's only made it worse last time, so i asked the counselor to help me with this and get him to take my baby seriously about it. and even help get me evidence that i'm not being vendictive about the whole thing
She should talk to him.
If he refuses to listen, then you need to listen to her pleas. I know you don't want an absent father but isnt that maybe better than one that keeps showing anger and hate? I don't know this is a tough situation but I would advise not to let her feel like you are not supporting her when she asks if she can stay home. She is getting old enough where they may allow her to have some say in visitation.
Your words: "he needs to hear this from you not me"
Your daughter needs to talk to her father. Clearly and calmly. When she has his full attention.
Maybe his heart needs a little breaking.
***ADDED AFTER YOUR SWH***
S., please take this opportunity to empower your girl to be the captain of her own ship. I think positively impacting your own life trumps "2 wrongs don't make a right" every time. Plus...that adage doesn't even apply to this situation. SHE needs to express herself and explain how she feels to HER OWN FATHER--not you, not the judge. He has a right to see her. Legally. So she might as well get on with trying to make it better. Not avoiding. Not ignoring. not talking to everybody else except the man that CAN make some changes for her.
It is fairly common to have a child write a letter to the Judge. The letter is usually written by the child in the presence of an adult (not the parents or step-parents, usually an attorney, therapist or guardian ad litem) and then it is sealed so only the Judge knows what it says. So, if your daughter isn't comfortable actually speaking to the Judge the letter might be the way to go. Perhaps writing a letter to her dad would be more comfortable for her as well. I think you and your daughter need to sit down with her father and discuss her feelings. He needs to know what she thinks about the whole fighting situation at his house and she needs you there to make sure things don't get out of hand and for moral support.
Wow, difficult situation. First, I agree with others who say that your daughter should not be asked to make major decisions about visitation and custody issues. These are grown-up issues, and she should not be in a position to blame herself for things. Yes, she's asking for less visitation, but now it's up to you to pursue that rather than place the burden on her. For that reason, I don't think she should be asked to talk with a judge unless the judge specifically requests it. The counselor can testify on her behalf as to what your daughter says and how it's affecting her. I also disagree with others that your daughter should be expected to work this out with her dad. She's 8! And he has major anger issues. She's probably afraid of making him angry.
Just FYI, hitting a hole in the wall is a huge danger sign of anger management problems. Did he do this in front of your daughter? Can you imagine how frightening this was for her, if so? Of course she wouldn't want to talk directly with him.
I grew up with parents who argued very loudly and sometimes threw things at each other. It was very scary for me, and I have problems with expressions of anger to this day as a result. It's up to you to try to protect your daughter from this situation. You could try to get supervised visits between her and her dad, or you could talk with the dad about ways to meet with her alone. It's not all-or-nothing in terms of "keep things the way they are now" vs. "he's an absentee father."
I agree with Hazel that the use of "skids" for "step-kids" is jarring. Until I read her post, I thought you meant he goes on the skids, like he's an alcoholic!
Good luck!
I would call your divorce or custody lawyer and see what they would recommend on this situation. They see it on a regular basis and would know better on what are the outcomes of a child talking to the judge or not.
In many states to send a child to a fighting couple is considered child endangerment. You need professional advise. Yes your daughter has the right to visit less often and to tell her father why. If he wants to take it to court then if he winds up in the slammer it is not her fault.
You have to protect your child from emotionally stressful situations. That is your job. Every weekend with a couple that cannot stop fighting is just too much. Maybe her father would be wiling to see her during the daytime without his wife present. That way she could get some real attention from him.
Do not get your current situation confused with the absentee father you had. Your ex is not an absentee father. He probably cares very much about your shared daughter. He's in a very bad marriage which may not last. But the hole is the wall is an extremely bad indictation of the potential for increased violence. Your child should not be endangered by her father and step-mother and that is exactly what is happening.
You are a good mom - you seem to really be trying to balance her needs of keeping dad in her life - but making sure she doesn't have undue stress. I think that you should start the conversation - it's kind of tough to put that all on an 8 yr old. Simply tell him that your DD has told you it's stressful to be around the fighting and that while she loves to see you dad, she finds that dealing with the fighting makes her stomach hurt - or something like that. Suggest maybe that they can find a better way to do the visitation that will make DD more comfortable? If he gets hostile, or refuses to find a more healthy alternative for his DD then you need to go back to court. Most family courts have child advocates who are trained to get all sides of the issue and advocate to the court for the child. My aunt is a retired nurse and does this in PA - she will interview the child, both parents, and any other relevent people - then she writes up a recommendation for the judge. So far, in the three years she's been doing this, her recommendations have always been accepted.
good luck mama! Your DD is a fortunate girl to have a mom who really loves her and knows how important it is to have healthy relationships around her.
Couldn't you tell her that legally she has to see her dad upon the agreed time, if she doesn't want to talk to her dad about her feelings. Then she has to talk to a judge in a courtroom. Then let her decide which she would prefer.
You say she doesn't want to break her dads heart yet, she is also afraid to talk in court because of the stories she's heard of dads getting in trouble.
So for this, I would let her make the decision. Which one she'd like to do? Then tell her if she talks to her dad first and it doesn't work she can always do the court way.
Just because she got shot down last time she tried having a conversation with him on the matter does not mean she will get shot down if she tries again. If at first you don't succeed, try try again. I would help her have the conversation by you pretending to be him. Do several different scenarios so she can figure out what to say and where to go with what she wants to say by you giving different types of answers that you predict he may say. Start with ignoring her when she speaks, and teach her how to get his full attention so he will listen. Tell her to be pro-active, teach her to get what she wants.
Talk to your atty and see what they think about your child approaching the judge, some judges don't want to deal with the pediatrics in their court room.
Good luck!
I think it's wise to have your daughter talk to a councellor. Perhaps the councellor could then speak to the judge on your daughter's behalf? That way your daughter isn't *directly* speaking to the judge, which I imagine would be quite intimidating for an 8 year old.
I also think you should encourage your daughter to have a heart to heart with her dad. Maybe call him ahead and request that he take her our for lunch or something, just the two of them, so they can talk without interruptions. You could role play with her beforehand so that she can sort out what she wants to say before she's put on the spot. Don't coach her, just let her practice saying it out loud.
If you do let her talk to the judge...please, please, please let her do it in private without either of you there. What a horrible position to be put in to bash one parent in front of them...or the other. I would request a private consult with the judge and see what can be done. She is too young to be put in that position.
I would urge her to try to talk to him again (even if she needs to do so w/ you present). Since she doesn't want to talk to him AGAIN but is obviously stressed about it you could talk to him. Tell him that unless and until he and his wife can get along better (at least in front of the children) then you want him to voluntarily lessen his visitation. If he doesn't comply (either option) then you will be forced to have her speak to the judge and the thought of that is also stressing her out. She is certainly old enough to be taken seriously.
