Please..................need Help with a 4 Year Old and 8 Month Old

Looks like you got some LOOONNNG responses, so hopefully there is some good information in there - no time to read all of that. I just wanted to say - Welcome to Motherhood! Sounds like what you are going through is very normal. My 4-year-old also wouldn't go to sleep until 1:00 am last night, even though I get him up at 8:00 am to go to preschool. Nobody said this would be easy - it's a miracle we don't all have nervous breakdowns. Hang in there!

Sounds like you need Super Nanny! Ha ha! But seriously, I don't have too much advice, just hang in there (you're not alone, even though it feels that way) As far as picking up the toys, I've threatened to throw toys away if they're not cleaned up. I've had to follow through on it a couple of times too! Gets rid of plastic junk in the house anyway. But I haven't had to do it do often b/c my kids take that one really seriously. I also tell them "Tomorrow is vacuuming day and if you don't want all your tiny pieces of whatever vacuumed up you better put them away!" This one usually works too.

As far as the baby is concerned, it sounds like he's just being a typical 8 month old (hate to say it) My youngest gave up baby food completely at 8 months so I just started chopping every thing we ate into tiny tiny bits for her. What she really wanted was to feed herself, so once she was doing that she was happy. Maybe give that a try?

You're doing a good job!!
K.

PS - the person who said you should not refer to your son as your "little man" needs to lighten up :)

Your 4 yr sounds a bit like my guy. Take a deep breath and look for the books "Setting Limits" or "Setting limits with Your Strong willed Child", wish I had read them earlier! They are both eye opening. They give you the tools to set limits and stick with them. The kids are sensing your tiredness and frustration and acting on it. The little darlings are great at finding and pushing our buttons. We have been using the techniques and things are getting better here. As for the potty, my nearly 6yr old DS still has some damp days. Try to just calmly give him the clean clothes and ask him to change.

I hope things get better for you. I think the last half of the 4 yo year was one of the hardest periods for us. My daughter had monster tantrums, didn't want to sleep, didn't want to listen, etc. There were days that she brought me to tears. One day she screamed for 4 hours. I happened to mention it to my pediatrician and she said to start taking things away. One day she threw a fit when we were about to go to the pool, she stayed home crying and screaming as her brother and I went without her. I would take away TV time, toys etc. She would have to earn them back.

Bedtime has always been between 7 and 730. Sometimes she cried for a few hours. She would cling to me so hard it was painful when I was leaving, so after several nights, my husband told her she lost mommy putting her to bed until she behave. He put her to bed for 2 weeks, then every time she acted up for me at bedtime, she lost me putting her to bed for several nights. There were rough mornings because she was crying until 9 or 10 at night, but I started the 3 strike rule, after the second time in the room, that was it. And if my husband put her to bed, I wouldn't be up when she cried for me. naps were hard because she needed one and would often fall asleep at the end of nap time and then be a bear when I would have to wake her. Send him to his room for an hour of quiet time. Part of his problems falling asleep maybe because he isn't getting enough rest during the day. Give him some books to look at if he can't sleep with the rule that he just has to stay quiet.

As for the underwear, I have to tell you, I am learning much from my 3 yo son. Sometimes I will watch him go and he still manages to get pee on his underwear and I can't quite figure out how. You may have to watch him to figure out if it is a aim issue, not pulling the pants down, or maybe he just gets wrapped up in his activities and forgets to go. You may have to remind him and give him rewards if he stays dry. We got a magnetic "chore" chart from Target and each day of the week she gets a star if she succeeds in going to bed, putting toys away, no tantrums, etc. She gets a penny for each star, and if she gets 7 in any category she gets a dollar (this doesn't happen much so it is a thrill when it does)

As for the 8 month old, my son stopped baby food around 6 or 7 months old, refused to touch it. Table food was just so much more exciting for him, esp with the ability to feed himself. Get him on a 2 nap a day schedule, the first nap around 1 1/2 after he wakes up and the second after lunch (I coordinated both kids to around the same time for afternoon naps). Do the same night time routine for naps. Check on him once and then let him cry for the rest of the time. Bed time for my son at that age was 645P.

Good luck to you. Just remember this will pass. I have been in your place on many occasions.

Hi S.. I do not have specific advice for you because I honestly think it is a few different things you may want to address. First you are still in the postpardom period and no I am not saying you are depressed but what I am saying is that for a little over 6 months after my second son was born I just had a difficult time handling both kids (still do some times :) so understand that you are still getting aclimated to a new life with your second. Secondly, you need some time to yourself. If you are able to get a little time to yourself you will be able to come back to the situation better equiped to handle your son. Yet again after my second was born I was desperate to get a little time to myself, It did not really happen but I felt it would have been very helpful. I suggest you find a MOPS group that you could start attending (I love my group and they are extremly helpful) and also check into going to the YMCA which has childcare. I really think just a little time to yourself will work wonders. Lastly, as far as your 4 yr old, I do not have a lot of mommy experience for you on that one other than I think he may be acting out with the new addition to the family. You may want to try a once a week outing with just your four year old to shower him with some one on one attention. And I think you are going to have to stick to your guns on bedtime and tv. My tv is plugged into a surge protector and I turn it off at the protector and the kids do not know how to turn it back on. As far as the eating, make dinner - put it on the table (I would make him sit at the table) but if does not want to eat after 15 min - in the garbage it goes and he waits until the next meal - he will not starve and will quickly learn that you mean business. I wish you the best and please remember that you are still adjusting and you need support (I hope you have some - it can be a hard, tiresome road with out some support).

In short, I have been there! I was in the same boat with so many of these issues. I'll just throw some ideas out to you that worked for me:
4 year-old: My daughter exhibited similar behavior after her brother turned 6 months old. I eventually realized that a lot of her behavior was rooted in missing being the spotlight. He was getting cuter and more interactive, and I realized she needed to hear more positive things about her and get more loving attention (rather than "be careful! don't step on the baby! stop that!, etc.). I was amazed how it worked. This is quite different from what others usually recommend, and perhaps it depends on the kid. But it worked wonders with my daughter and still does. When she is acting out, I try to make sure to be more loving and attentive with her and it usually does the trick. At times I also send her to her room until she's ready to be nice, which also works with her.

Baby - My son also refused baby food at an early age. He saw us eating sandwiches while he was stuck with puree and rebelled. So I started trying to make foods for everyone that could also be given to him, like sweet potato fries, and other foods that were soft enough.

Sleep issues - This has been a war in my house too. But you have to decide on a bedtime (especially for the 4 year-old) and stick to it. Can your husband help out with it? That's what worked for us.
Your baby has got to nap. I never did "cry it out" so I don't have specific advice. But I do know that for the sake of everyone - you all need to nap or at least rest during the day (including your 4 year-old).

You - I also had a problem getting myself to bed after we finally got the kids down. I wanted time to just sit and worry about no one else but me. However, I realized that staying up late was only contributing to my misery during the day. My husband started making me go to bed earlier (like 11 pm) and it really made a difference. I also joined an exercise class 2 nights a week. If you have someone who can watch the kids at night for an hour and a half, you will be amazed how good it feels to just get out. Otherwise you are literally working 24 hours a day as a SAHM! I can't tell you how I would run to that aerobics class (where in the past I could hardly motivate myself to exercise!).

Good luck. I can tell you that it does get easier as they get older - and eventually they'll even play together and you will be able to just sit back a bit!

Hey S.,
Four is a really tough time with boys. Honestly. One two three magic is the very best tried and true approach. Please don't raise your voice, or show any facial expression. When he really needs a time out, put him in for four minutes (a minute for each year of their age). If he gets out, put him in again, until he gets it. If he begins to have a tantrum, play, etc. his time out does not begin until he cooperates. Don't react. This is something you should stick to for a number of years. Four is also an age when they really need you to sit and do things just with them. Build a playhouse out of a box, make butter by shaking heavy cream, dancing together...your baby sounds as though he is reacting a bit to the chaos. Please remember you will be okay, but you do need your sleep, for everyone's sake. Sleep is crucial. Can you place a single bed for yourself in the baby's room, or have him sleep in your room in the crib? Hugging and rocking with pleasant music works wonders. The bedtime needs to be consistent in it's patterns. Warm bath, music, book, toothbrushing, time, etc. This is important for all children. Good luck! Patience and prayer are phenomenal. So are slow, breathing techniques.

first of all your 3 1/2 yr old is not a little man he is a little boy and should be treated as such. Do not have a nevous breakdown. You and your husband need to reconize that you are the parents. Stop allowing the child to dictate to you what they want let them know that you are in charge. First of all the 3 1/2 yr old can only understand one task at a time. We as moms are good at multi tasking and expects everyone to do the same its not going to happen. Be consistence with him. Give him a small amount of toys at a time to play with and not let him pull out everything at one time. If he doest'n response when its time to clean up then let him sit for a while and think about the assignment that you gave him and try it again. But what every you do. DO NOT Clean Up for him after you told him to do it. Another idea try making cleanup a fun task not so much as heard work for him children like to have fun but again we have to be consistent with them. When it comes to bed time you have to set the tone. Do not allow yourself to stay up that late if they are not ill. Take all toys out of the rooms no T.V. should be in the rooms. The bedroom is for sleeping. If the 8 month old cry when you lay him down and there is nothing wrong with him just peak in the room and make sure he is ok. But do not pick him up or let him see you. Because as long as he know that mommy is coming he will keep do the same thing night after night. You are in charge and you have to let them know. Love is tuff some times so stand your ground and they will love you that much more. The 8 month see every one eating regular foods so it may be time to start switching him over to table food. Just don't use to much seasoning on his portion. I know they are your babies but you have to take care of mommy also to be there for them. If dad is there please let him get involved even thought you are home all day. That is alot on one person. If he love you he will understand. Trust me you will make it though. From a mom of 5 who cares.

Wow you really are having a hard time at the moment & this is quite a difficult post to answer. The 8 month old is still young enough for you to make drastic changes and learn them , the not wanting baby food could be a sign that he is ready to move on to foods with more texture/finger foods. As for the other behaviour like the sleep issues he is probably picking up from his brother , plus if bedtime (for the baby) is an anxious/noisy time from the rest of you then this is more than likely what is keeping him from settling. The other response made a reference to supernanny , well this is not a bad idea , she has a website with some really good info/tips. We have just used this ourselves to help with some behaviour issues in our 6 & 4 yr old.

Good luck

K.

I think we've all been at our wits end from time to time. My 3 and 1/2 year old daughter can really give us a run for the money at times. As for the toys, nothing seemed to work for us until I tried something I'd read in Parents magazine. One night after dinner I told Maddie she had a choice, pick up all the toys or I would call in the "Pickup Fairy" to take them away once she went to bed. I explained that the Pickup Fairy lives in the woods, and every night she flies in and takes away all toys that were not put away properly. She then gives those toys to little girls and boys who will appreciate and take care of them. At first it didn't seem to concern her in the slightest. I picked up the phone, dialed time, and then gave the pickup fairy permission to come in that night and take away all the toys. My husband even turned on the porch light to drive home the effect. Well it worked she ran around the room picking up all her toys and putting them away. We didn't have an issue for about a week, then she decided she would only pick up the toys she "really cared about." Those were her words so I explained that if any of the toys were left on the floor, all the toys would be taken away by the pickup fairy. She can not pick and choose what toys she keeps. And if she doesn't really care about a toy, perhaps it's time to donate that toy to a child that will love and appreciate it. For the most part that has been working for about 6 months now. Occasionally she will refuse to pick up the toys and I make her go around the room and say goodbye to the toys one by one and then send her up to bed. It usually only takes about 2 minutes before she is at the door begging to come down and pick up her toys. My daughter also has major meltdown tantrums, and when she does I just walk away and ignore her. I tell her that Mommy will not speak to her until she gets herself together. It's tough to walk away when she throws herself on the floor kicking and screaming but it has to be done. Maddie needed to learn that type of behavior is not acceptable and will not be rewarded by extra attention from Mommy or Daddy. We both ignore her until she gets herself together, which usually takes less than 2 minutes now. It's the same with our discipline. In the last few months she's started screaming at us, sticking her tongue out, refusing to listen to anything we ask of her, and talking back. (Who thought to teach this child the word NO ;0) We've been dealing with this behavior for about 3 months now and nothing has worked. The "thinking chair" no longer works for her. 3 weeks ago we ramped up the time out to standing in the corner with her nose to the wall. She absolutely hates it. Every time she disrespects us in anyway she is put in the corner, no if's and's or but's... We've always used time out as a reflection period, she is forced to sit there for 3 minutes (counting starts after she stops crying, must sit in silence). Before she is allowed to leave time out we always have a discussion with her and ask her if she knows why she is in time out and explain there is always a consequence for your actions. As for bedtime, we've been pretty lucky with that but occasionally she will stall or throw a fit. We usually read 3 stories before bedtime, and sing our song as we tuck her in. However, if she fights us on getting changed or brushing her teeth she loses a story, the longer she takes to get ready for bed the more she looses. There have been nights where she's lost all 3 stories and only gets her song. But she's learned that if she does what is expected of her we will get to spend more fun time together. I hope some of these suggestions help.

hi S.,
i'm not an especially authoritative mom, things have generally worked pretty well around here through discussion and some negotiation. that being said, the buck stops with you and that means you do have to take your power as She Who Has the Final Say.
toys are easy. if they're not picked up, they go, period. you can be nice at first and just put them away, doling them back out as rewards for good behavior in other areas if you like, but eventually if he continues to refuse to pick them up, donate them. have him go with you when you drop them off so he really gets what the consequence is. work out your plan, explain it to him, and mean business. there is no need EVER for a mother to have to pick up kids' toys endlessly once they're beyond toddling.
tv is easy. turn it off and keep it off. again, you can allow half hour tv shows or videos if he decides to be cooperative in life at large, but there is no reason to keep the tv on to the point where he's mesmerized by it. take no prisoners here. tv is a privilege, not a right.
food is harder. kids do (and should IMO) have control over how much they eat, and to a limited degree what. don't make yourself nuts over it. let him have some input as to menus, fix healthy food and if he refuses to eat it, let him. no child ever died from skipping a meal. keep healthy snacks available for him as long as he chooses to join you at meals and at least try what you've prepared, but if he doesn't, let him go and enjoy your own meal. he will not voluntarily starve. i promise this.
potty training is very murky terrain. at 4 you may think he should have it nailed down, but it's very possible that he's still not really all the way there. do NOT punish for this, be very calm and matter-of-fact. have him clean himself and help with the laundry, and offer rewards for good days.
you cannot force sleep. make him stay in his room and be quiet, and if he reads or plays quietly, oh well.
let the baby start having soft appropriate food. he's being pretty clear. don't start food fights, you can't win and they're not worth it.
have a good reliable bedtime routine, and while building in enough flexibility to allow you to have a life, stick to it. if he screams, go to him and quietly rub his back or just sit with him but don't pick him up or yell or interact in any way. quiet, quiet, soothing and calm.
when all is quiet, take a nice hot bubble bath with a scented candle and a good book, and go to bed early. YOU need rest and to pamper yourself a bit.
khairete
S.

Wow. Other than trying to call for Supernanny, this is what I would do...

first start with you: the upside to being a SAHM is that you don't have an alarm clock and work schedule to worry about. That can also be a downside. When days start to blend into one, the daily routine goes out the window. You are obviously sleep deprived and overstressed. So start with you. Arrange for hubby or a friend to take the kids out for a few hours. Rest, sleep, get recharged. Take time to get a fresh, 'new start' point of view.

for the 4 yr old:
toys - if he won't pick them up then they are not important to him. If he throws them at you, they are no longer a toy, but a weapon, and weapons are allowed. Take them away and put them in a closet or throw them away. Trust me, throwing them away has a big impact! I did this to my son, and its amazing how fast he moves now! (Of course the neighbor's hubby didn't agree and told her she was NEVER allowed to throw away toys that he had purchased. whatever, different issue).

underwear - create a sticker chart. each day has an a.m. and p.m. slot. If he goes all morning with dry clothes, he gets a gold or silver star. If he messes, he gets a red star. After so many days, he gets some special snack/treat.

sleep - I hear ya!! What we've been doing lately is that we start our bed time right after dinner. Turn the tv off at the start of the routine. Get the baths, showers, etc done, and then depending on the time, we MIGHT turn the tv on for 1 show. Its amazing how a quiet house will wind a kid down. When my 3 year old 'isn't tired', I tell her fine, she doesn't have to sleep, she can read to herself, but she can't talk cuz others ARE sleeping. Works everytime.

8 month old -
eating - it could be something as simple as that he doesn't like the texture of the baby food anymore. try introducing some table foods - cheerios, french toast sticks, wagon wheels, non-honey graham crackers, etc. He could be teething and looking for something crunchy, or he just likes the sound :-)

sleeping - try using the pack n play instead of his crib, even if its next to his crib. The change may be just the thing he needs. Try putting a lullaby CD on, low volume.

Good luck
M.

Good day friend.

I'd like to apologize if I am repeating anything that other folks have said. You know how Mamasource is. I can't read responses until AFTER I've written. Now, to your problem:

I can tell by your e-mail that you're are feeling very frustrated, but honey, it's just a phase. I tell you, there are times when my son behaves like an angel (he's six now) and there are times when he tests the bleep out of me. I've figured, through personal experience, that every once in a while my son tests me to see if maybe the rules have changed or maybe I'll let him get away with something. So, if I were you, I wouldn't take it personally. Since children are by definition powerless, the only way they can stretch themselves (and get more) is to stretch you. So, do what you've been doing and in a month or so, he'll be back in line.

Same with your baby. Don't stress about his eating. Children eat when they need/want to. They aren't old enough to know about gluttony. Try giving him food that you think he'll like and encourage him to eat, but don't make it a fight. One final thing, often time when kids stop eating, it's the baby food that they're sick of. If I remember correctly, your son is about 10 months old. He's not too young for table food. Try giving him more table food (cut up n' stuff)and let him feed himself.

Feel better about this sister woman. You know, they will grow up to be men who eat and use the bathroom properly no matter what! :-)

T.

When the toys are not picked up. Pick them up yourself and put them away in a closet where he can't get them out for a week. Every time - all unpicked up toys. He'll catch on eventually. Unplug the TV. He gets to watch when he's earned it with good behavior and then only for 1 or 2 hours a day. It would probably do you some good to not watch it for awhile yourself. Read. You can set story times to read to the kids once or twice a day, maybe just before nap times. Set the bedtime. Some parents can get their kids to bed then the parents stay up and get a few things done. I could never manage that myself. We all went to bed at the same time (lights out by 9pm) (he had a night light in his room), and with the rest of the house dark and shut down for the night there was nothing to do but sleep or stare at the night light and cuddle his teddy bear. My son went through a phase somewhere when he was 3 where when he was unhappy or bored he'd just scream. My nerves were jangled (I hadn't figured to get earplugs yet). Then I just realized he was doing it to release his frustrations. So at home, sometimes I would scream too - wordless harmony sometimes. Nothing angry - just loud. He'd try to get louder - so would I. Eventually he'd tire and stop, but he tried again a few times, and I'd join him. Eventually he looked at me and said "Mommy - that is really annoying." And I told him "Yep - it sure is. Let's find something else to do." and that was the end of it. You're not doing your kids any favors by letting them bully you. The 8 month old won't stave himself. My son would take a mouthful here or there from 6 months to 1 yr old, but he preferred formula for the most part, so I let him have it. It was certainly easier to clean up, and he had better mouth/tongue control when he was older to eat solid foods. The older one breaking toilet training - is he acting up out of sibling jealousy? Does he care if he's wet or not? Is he leaving puddles around the house? Can you put him in Pullups or would he not care about that either? On weekends, sometimes my son didn't want to nap. I'd tell him "Well I'M tired - I'M taking a nap." and then I'd lay down. He'd come lay down next to me and before you knew it, everyone was asleep - sometimes Dad too. My son was always afraid he miss something if he was sleeping while anyone else was awake, so he'd fight it. But when everyone slept there was nothing to miss. When the kids want to argue with you - the answer is "Because I'm the Mama. When you are grown, moved out, with kids of your own, then you can set your rules. Until then, I set the rules.". End of argument.

Keep loving them and know that this particular tough patch will pass. I had boys with the same age difference as you do and it was tough when the smaller one started becoming more of a boy and a threat to the older one. And when the older one stopped napping, I was really exhausted until I figured out that we could still have quiet time.

You can figure out what is going on. Usually I figured things out but not until after the crises but still I could use what I learned to make things smoother the next time. My boys needed regular routines, meals, snacks, naps or quiet time, and a lot of exercise at those ages. Music and baths saved many days from disaster.

I finally figured out that my older son had a problem with artificial flavors, colors, and preservatives, as well as salycilates (which are a natural preservative, related to aspirin and found in certain foods, including apples and tomatoes). The Feingold program, feingold.org, can be a lifesaver. It sounds tough to change your family's diet but even one less fit per day makes it worthwhile.

Every child is different but for us, taking out apple juice, tomato sauce and ketchup made enormous differences in behavior and also in toilet problems. Your kids could have a different problem, with dairy or gluten or corn syrup. It is worth figuring out and it never hurts to eat real food at several meals plus a couple of snacks that include protein.

Sometimes it was hard to get exercise but it was always better when we went out. The neighbors would peek out their windows on the rainy and snowy days that we were out but it was worth it. And if they got wet and cold, a hot bath was a special treat. Sometimes if the older one was a problem, we would find a ballfield and I'd have him run the bases. I still do that with my youngest and his friends if they act crazy in the car before I bring them back to the house. They think it is funny because I don't say it like a punishment, more of a challenge - like, can you run the bases three times?

At your kids ages, I made a rules chart using pictures. The kids (well the older one although I included the baby in family meetings) made the rules and I was pleased that my son knew what the rules were. We made up consequences - mostly loss of a toy, never time with parents or exercise. I really like the book "1, 2, 3 Magic." There are many discipline books and most of them have the same message: parents need to stay calm and unemotional. My kids are now teens and I still have to work at that. If Mom can't stay calm, neither will the kids. But don't be too hard on yourself, it is a really hard job. And remembering that you get lots of chances to teach the kids right from wrong helps.

The TV issue can be solved by turning it off for a whole day if there is a refusal to turn it off. This may be more trouble for you for that day but you can make it work. My TV locks with parental controls.

Friends have had lots of luck with early bedtimes. You can really change your kids' schedule by moving dinner to 4 or 5, followed by bath, reading, and quiet time. After 8, kids get a second wind and are really cranky which makes it tough for them to fall asleep.

I liked falling asleep with my kids so I never bothered having them cry it out. Kids left to cry have greater anxiety as adults (a Harvard study) and I can understand why they don't want to separate. If you lay down in a dark room with a story tape or music, it can be the nicest part of the day. They smell good after their baths and snuggle. I really like Jim Weiss cds. If the room is childproofed and the lights are off and everyone is quiet, they can move around a bit without you giving them any negative attention. Essentially you become very boring until they want to snuggle and fall asleep. I nursed so that was a great thing for the youngest but this worked for the weaned older ones too. If you want to get up when they fall asleep, you can. Or you can make up for the lost sleep for a few weeks until you feel better. We moved them to their own beds after they fell asleep but not all kids will transfer so you have to figure that out.

Good luck. I know it is super hard sometimes. Being a mom was much harder than working professionally for me. It can be exhausting and you don't get enough positive feedback. But the work is really important. You are raising men and we need more good ones!

Hi S.. Things sound really stressful at your house right now. My advice is to work on the sleep issue right away--I think/hope you'll find that if everyone gets more sleep, some of these other issues will improve and the others will seem more manageable, even if they're still frustrating. My favorite sleep book--which we've used very faithfully with my almost-4-year-old son and 17-month-old daughter is "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" by Dr. Weissbluth. I think if you can get that book and read it, you'll see how good sleep habits can really transform your children, and you'll get loads of advice and anecdotes about how to make it work.

Here's what we do: my kids go to bed around 6:30 p.m. My son sleeps until 6:45 or so in the morning, and my daughter sleeps until 7:30. My son doesn't really nap anymore, but my daughter gets about 45 min of morning nap and about 1-1/2 hours in the afternoon. My husband and I go to bed around 9:30 p.m. so that we're well-rested when the kids are ready to get up.

OK, so even with all of that sleep, the kids are FAR from perfect, and there are still lots of sibling squabbles. And our son (who turns 4 on 12/30) doesn't always listen or do what we say, and we do lots of time outs. I've also started taking toys away--I even keep a bag going that we give to the thrift store when it's full. Probably not the best way to teach charity, but we'll work more on that later.

I'm very interested to read what everyone else has to say on 4-year-old discipline advice.