Out of Control 5 Yr Old - Gilbert,AZ

Remove the artificial colors from her diet. My son and my nephew had a horrible problem with Yellow 5, but both have since grown out of it. Believe it or not, it is really hard for some kids to metabolize those chemicals. Unbelieveable that it is in so many children's foods.

All the things you've described sound perfectly normal to me. Peeing "backwards?", yep. it's easier to sit on the toilet that way for little kids. Peeing while standing up? yep -probably trying to imitate dad. Climbing onto a changing table and put on a diaper? yep, trying to imitate baby.

She sounds totally normal, she just needs more parental attention on what is "nice touch" vs "mean touch" with the baby. I wouldn't get worked up AT ALL about trying out new things (the toilet use, or trying on diapers) With a brand new baby there is all sorts of new stuff going on at the house and she needs YOU to help her process it.

To me, nothing sounds especially "weird" at all, she may just need more one on one attention. GL.

I have five children, all of whom have special needs and three of whom have some type of developmental disability. My oldest was a 24 week micro-preemie with multiple disabilities, among them low functioning autism and significant cognitive delays, my six year old has Aspergers (and was diagnosed with low functioning autism and had that diagnosis confirmed by a second and third opinion between the ages of 1 and 2 but has flourished with therapy), and one of my three year olds has a developmental delay and other disabilities also related to prematurity.

My six year old had the. most. out of control behavior that can be imagined when he was younger. I don't often go into great detail on public message boards because far too often people get one snapshot of the story and decide it's all simply because you are a lousy parent and if you'd JUST ______ (insert "perfect" parent behavior here) then your child would NEVER do ________ (insert unacceptable child behavior here), because THEIR child has NEVER __________ (insert unacceptable behavior) because they won't "allow" it!

However, I will share that my son was a wild-child. The hyperactivity was off the charts, as well as his aggression. He would randomly and impulsively bite people....whether he was angry, frustrated, happy, excited, or just happened to run by you....he would out-of-the-blue just bite people. It was bad enough at one point that when I was no longer capable of standing two inches behind him in public places (like a park, or zoo) because I had too many kids and not enough of "me" to be his personal follower, I hibernated us in my house for almost six months. We'd go to the park and if another child showed up, we'd leave.

For *years* and *years* I told people I thought he was over-tired. He had dark circles under his eyes and his behavior, especially the hyperactivity and impulsivity SCREAMED "I'm exhausted". And he was a frequent night-waker (as an infant up to 14 times a night even at a year old), a VERY early riser (up at 4 am) and would simply collapse at the end of the day, not gradually fall asleep, but just fall apart and crash. His behavior would consistently get worse as the day progressed. I kept bringing this up to pediatricians and therapists that this simply could not be considered normal. But, because he didn't snore, he was very thin for his age and his tonsils looked normal on examination, I kept being told it was a sensory issue related to his autism, and that sleep issues were common in autistic children and our treatments were all on the sensory side of the equation.

Finally, FINALLY when he was about to turn four, I had a new developmental pediatrician who listened to me explain my concerns about his sleeping and order the overnight sleep study I had been requesting for nearly three years. And sure enough, my son had severe sleep apnea. Even though his tonsils were normal size, doing a tonsillectomy and adenoidectomy is the standard recommendation for medical treatment, so we went ahead. The adenoids cannot be seen until they're actually *in* surgery, and the ENT came out to tell me that my son's adenoids were the largest she had seen in her career, and were actually entirely blocking the back of his nose and she was shocked he could breathe through his nose at all, never mind when sleeping.

I was told that within 3 months, I would have a brand new child. And I'm here to tell you, within 3 months, I absolutely had a brand new child. The hyperactivity? Gone. The biting? Gone. The impulsive pushing/shoving? About 80% gone. The late afternoon crazy-screaming hours? Gone. The constant crankiness and hypersensitivity? Drastically reduced.

Severe sleep deprivation in young children most often manifests itself as *hyperactive* and *impulsive* behavior. I would google "sleep apnea in children" and see if it resonates with you and your child at all. All it takes for a diagnosis is an overnight sleep study.

Having my son treated for sleep apnea did not cure his autism and he certainly still has behavioral and other challenges that come with an ASD diagnosis. But treating his sleep apnea literally changed both his life, and the quality of life for our entire family. I had actually broken down and put him on behavioral medication during that very same appointment where the developmental pediatrician ordered the sleep study, because dealing with his aggression was so constantly draining. Right after his surgery three months later, we took him off and have never looked back. All of his challenges now can be managed without the need for medication.

The bottom line--- while I bring up sleep apnea as an oft-undiagnosed and very real cause of this kind of behavior, the real moral of the story is that you are her mother. You have parented her for five years. If your gut tells you something is "wrong" and this goes beyond typical behavior, then trust your gut. You know your daughter better than ANYONE and you are going to be the first person who recognizes and understands that there is an issue that needs to be examined and treated. Children can be diagnosed with developmental disorders and other behavioral disorders as young as 12-18 months of age. I would start by researching developmental pediatricians in your area, find one I was most impressed with, and schedule a thorough assessment where you can bring your concerns directly to the person who will evaluate your daughter.

There are answers out there, and there is hope! It often times takes a lot of persistence on the part of parents to get correct and proper diagnoses, but with a diagnosis also comes answers and treatment options that better your child's life and your whole family. Trust your instincts.

Edit to add: here is a detailed list of the symptoms of sleep apnea in children http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/childapnea.html

Your daughter sounds like a creative and curious kid, in some ways. I'm glad you're getting her evaluated, though, because you could indeed learn that she has a problem and can't really help her lack of self-control. If you discover that, and learn ways to compensate, life will be a bit easier for you all.

Chemically, let me observe that I have very severe chemical sensitivities, and exposures to perfumes, cleaning agents, auto exhaust, new plastics … (insert long list here) … gives me both physical AND emotional symptoms. Plus, when I would get tested in a group situation, I often saw little kids go from quietly coloring to shrieking and bouncing off walls within minutes of having minute amounts of some chemical placed under their tongues.

So, if you are willing to experiment with this possibility, you might start by eliminating every scented detergent, cleaner, fabric softener, air freshener from your home over the next few weeks. Seal the ones you've got in plastic bags, and try using natural (unscented) laundry and dish soap, and try baking soda or vinegar to clean just about any other surface. If it makes a difference, you'll be glad for the experiment. If not, take out your old products and use them.

If you DO notice a difference, you can google terms like "non-toxic home" for many more tips on how to keep making your lives cleaner and safer.

Good luck.

Sounds like ADD/Impulse Control. My daughter has it and after she started taking Vyvanse she became totally wonderful to be around.

She still has her creativity, her sense of humor, and her sparkling personality... the difference is that she doesn't ACT on every THOUGHT she has. She can now control her impulses.

I realize that this will probably sound snarky, but I get so sick of the advice on this site that is all, "she needs an organic diet" "she needs more love and attention from her parents" "she's allergic to chemicals" "she sounds creative and gifted so you need to stimulate her" "being out of control and dangerous sounds normal to me" and BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Well, if you want to get her a sticker chart, start her in yoga classes at the ashram, blow sunshine up her bum all day, grind you own wheat into flour for homemade organic bread, read some self-help books on positive reinforcement, start breastfeeding her again, and stock up on Dr. Snakeoil's non-chemical home cleaning products for Holier-Than-Thou Mothers, then you can do all those things and I'm sure they won't hurt a bit.

If you want some practical, real world advice then here's mine: go to a psychologist, ask them to test your child for all of the various forms of ADD and if they find she has it, then go to the pediatrician GUILT FREE and ask for a prescription for a medication to treat the CHEMICAL IMBALANCE in the brain that causes ADD the same way you would if your child had any other illness cause by biological irregularities.

Good luck to you!

Five is not too young to diagnose most things these days. What kind of therapist did you talk to? We got our daughter evaluated by 2 child psychologists, 2 child psychiatrists and the school district eval team. She was diagnosed with ADHD right after she turned 4. There are also plenty of developmental specialists out there who can run a gamut of behavioral tests on her as well as interview you and your husband, her teacher and have her observed at school. Keep looking until you find someone who will listen. By this, I don't mean keep looking and looking until someone gives you the answer you want-but keep looking until you at least have someone willing to validate your feelings and give her a complete eval BEFORE they give (or don't give) her a diagnosis. Best case scenario, there is nothing going on but trust your gut. Until she has received a complete eval by a specialist how would the therapist know if she was diagnosable? There is not a starting age for these things and they are getting so much better about identifying things earlier and earlier in children--in order to get them help earlier. I truly hope she is normal rotten kid! :)

Have you thought about changing her diet? Maybe certain foods trigger her behavior. Google to see what is best for her. My sister changed her kids diet completely ( no gluten, no sugar, no processed foods etc.) and it really made a difference. She also went organic. It's worth a shot although may be difficult at first.
Another idea is to look into a parenting guide like Love and Logic. I am trying it with my 5 yr. old. I just finished taking a course on it and have noticed some changes already. We try not to yell or show emotion when a problem occurs.
Once the emotion is gone child usually gets bored misbehaving.
Good Luck!

It sounds like you're very frustrated and having a hard time loving your daughter. So she pees backwards on the toilet, let her. In my opinion the positive attention is going to the baby and she's feeling left out. Most of the situations you've listed seem to have to deal with the baby. Have you tried spending one on one time with her and making her feel important? Have you tried including her in helping with the baby? Have you considered that you could be tired and overwhelmed and are reacting negatively to the things she's doing? Could you have laughed when she was trying to put a diaper on? Could you have made a comment like 'I remember when you were this little and we needed to put diapers on you. Thank goodness you're so mature and use the toilet. Maybe when your sister's older you can teach her how to use the toilet too.' Also, have you considered if she's getting enough exercise? When kids have a lot of pent up energy, it's good to let them get it out in a physical way otherwise they do 'get into trouble'.
good luck.

I'm sorry to hear that your 5 yr old is going through something that must be very difficult for her to control and understand, which makes it difficult for you and your husband to deal with. You know your children best and if you feel that there is something "wrong" with your daughter then make sure you advocate for her the best you can. I'm not a Dr or therapist, and not knowing anything more about her or your family it could be a number of things that cause your daughter to behave this way. Only a child therapist can determine this now. Whatever path you choose to take with meds (they don't always work and/or can make things worse), remember to continue to treat your child from a place of complete unconditional love and respect as a unique individual first, and not come from a place of "how can we make our daughter act the way we want her to." Yes you need to keep her and your baby safe, and you want your home life to be as nurturing, safe, and non-stressful as possible for everyone, and you want to raise your children to be able to do as well as they can in school, with peers, and life outside the home. I'm sure this is not easy for you and not knowing exactly what to do now is frustrating. So since I don't have any medical knowledge, I'd like to offer some mom to mom (with some child development) words of support for you.
First, your daughters behavior towards your baby is absolutely normal. Not ideal or desirable, but it's normal for some older siblings to regress and/or want to hurt their new baby sibling. It seems especially hard for older siblings if they have any other behavior issues. I encourage you and your husband to take extra one on one time with your 5 yr old alone, without baby around. It doesn't take a grandiose excursion. Children just want our attention, our time. Going to the park, playing games, coloring or doing whatever your child wants to do (as long as it's appropriate and can be done). It is going to take time.
When she does hurt the baby that needs to be addressed firmly but calmly right away. Approach her with "discipline" in mind and not punishment. Discipline means "to teach". It works better in the long run than yelling or spanking or even time outs. (Calming time - ins when a child just needs to be removed from a situation and chill out for a while is different than putting a child in a naughty chair for a certain amount of time)...Believe me, being a mom of 4 I have lost it and yelled and God forbid, even spanked a couple of times. But from my own experience, research, education, and work that I do....punishment approaches just tear down a child. When your daughter does things like peeing in the toilet a different way or climbing in the crib, ask yourself "is she doing something dangerous?" "is she hurting the baby?" "how is this a problem at all?" She's not being sneaky or untrustworthy, or wierd; she's just curious and figuring out her place in her world now. Try not to label her as sneaky, wierd, or untrustworthy. If you label her as such, you will approach her this way and she WILL act this way because it's what is expected of her. Really think and discuss between you and your husband what behaviors are unsafe or completely inappropriate, address those in a calm and non-judgmental way and let the rest go. If she's trying to put on a diaper, ask her if she'd like to help you change the baby's diaper. If she's climbing in the playpen, maybe you and her can make her own little place for napping...like a makeshift tent. All kids love their own little space! The point is to think about her behaviors differently instead thinking that she is just "acting out". I think this will not only help you feel less stressed, but it will help your daughter learn better self control and feel better about herself in the long run. Focus on solutions instead of just the problem. You might find that you won't need to put her on meds if her behavior can be directed with consistent, calm, and loving way. I know it's not going to be easy, and we can only do our best at any given moment, so be gentle on yourself and take time to take care of yourself mentally, phyisically, emotionally, and spirtually. You will be able to give more to your family when your needs and wants are taken care of as well.
Finally, if or when you start down the therapist/medical path with your daughter continue to listen to your own inner wise mamma instincts. Your gut instincts will never fail you. If a Dr or therapist, or even a healer from non-western care does not feel right to you or does not have your daughters best interest in mind, then move on to someone else. Seek out the support you all need so your daughter will thrive no matter what challenges she may face and your whole family will stay strong and connected.

I wish you all the best as you journey through parenthood with your wonderful and unique children.

A.
mom of 4. Birth and Parenting Mentor
www.birthingfromwithin.com

Hi am in the same boat right now. I have a 6 yr old and a 19 month old. I also posted a similar request recently for help and guidance. My 6 yr old is also out of contol and very disruptive to ur family life. We have put down soe very strict rules rescently which have really helped. I made a behavior chart with three cards, green which she tarts each day in, yellow is her warning card and red when her behavior is out of control and will be sent to time out. She also throws horrible tantrums and hurts herself and sister and us. So for that we have started taking her to a behavioral therapist. Who told us to take parenting classes and to start reading books on parenting. Hope this helps, if you need anything let me know.

sounds to me like she is jealous of the baby and may need extra attention. Think about what your writing she is trying to do stuff to herself (putting a diaper on herself) to make her self a baby again. babies require more attention. I say its just jealousy.

Deep down I don't think this is a problem any other moms can answer. I think you have done the right thing organizing a therapist to assess the her. In the meantime, however, I have experienced this sort of behaviour in a friend of my 7 yr old son. This child has never been given any boundaries and is incredibly bright. I am not exaggerating when I say he could throw a brick at another child and the parents do not say a thing!!! You have not mentioned how you or your husband attempt to discipline her behaviour so it would be unfair of my to make a judgement call there. I also think there is no doubt she has jealousy issues with her younger sister and is trying to get your attention by her actions.

I did not read any of the rest of the posts, beacause if you have really tried everything then you know that you have an issue that discipline is not going to help you with.

Your therapist was wrong, and that is why you should always start with a Developmental Pediatrician or a Board Certified Child Psychiatrist. These are medical doctors who can diagnose children with real illnesses in children even younger than your daughter. My suggestion is that you do both, call your nearest children's hospital and make an appointment with a Developmental Pediatrician who will take several months to get into see. This kind of doctor will give you the gold standard of evaluations, one that includes every other doctor and therapist you may need and put it all into one single report with a treatment plan that will leave absolutley nothing out. In the mean time, consult a Board Certified Child Psychiatrist if one can see her sooner to be sure that you do all you can untl she gets fully evaluated.

Jumping to a therapist before you have an evalauation is kind of like going for chemo for a lump before you have a mamogram. You don't know what you need, so you can end up with the wrong answer and the wrong advice.

Do what you can for now, stay consistent, and call NAMI, there are classes that you can take to help you deal with the situation, no matter what turns out to be the issue. I beleive that you have done everything you should have, and that it is not just being a bad parent. Been there, done that. Once you have some answers, it will get better.

One note, do not depend on the school for all of her treatment or evaluation. You should own the evaluation that contains her diagnosis and you should always supplement her with as much private service as you can afford, and more, if that is what she needs.

Good luck, if you need any help navigating the school, let me know and I cna point you in the right direction.

M.

Anneka, LOVE your post!

It appears that she is just a curious and active little girl who needs a LOT of attention. Have you considered karate? They tire the kids out with activity and teach them lots of discipline.
She also sounds like she needs a lot of structure. I'd schedule every single second of her day. (I did this with my oldest because he needed to know what was happening when...)
If you think she is over tired, you may want to back her bedtime up.. My kids went to bed at 7 - 7:30 for years and years - until 6th grade when we bumped them up to between 8 and 8:30.
When she is being good, do you praise her?
YMMV
LBC

I am sorry ...I imagine it is a very exhausting and frustrating situation. In my opinion, it is very important that you take her to a pediatrician so she/he can suggest an evaluation and then refer you to a specialist (if necessary). In the meantime, I would suggest you to keep her in a VERY strict routine (sleeping, naps, quiet time, meals, including structured playing time and free play time!)Draw with her huge faces showing different feelings and write them down, put them on the refrigerator and talk with her about their feelings (often and when she feels angry or upset...etc) . Redirect her immediately to another activity or action when she is having tantrums or just doing the things you mentioned already.(I mean hug her and then take her to the yard or another room and make her laugh).
You mentioned that she has been always this way even before the baby was born, may be something else happened during this time? I am thinking of any kind of stressing situation for yourself or your daughter, moving, potty training. Sometimes, just the minimum thing change kids' behavior. Something in the class that she doesn't like (another kid, the teacher, recess, lunch, games with others, ..question, question, question........)????
Limit sugar intakes, ask the doctor to test on certain allergies food, that may help too.
There are many children who need to have a routine otherwise they do not function very well; this is a very hard thing to keep up, but it is possible.
Have her taking a little nap after school and a nutritious snack, and then take her to a park or playground or yard to play and run and jump!
I wish you the best of luck and try mostly to keep showing her your unconditional love for her. If you can, when she is doing something really nice, get a little something and tell her that her sibling is giving it to her because he/she loves her so much.

I have a neighbor who is experiencing the exact same thing with her 7 year old son. For years they tried to reason their way out of the issues; maybe he was tired, under stimulated, needed more/less discipline etc. After numerous tests, including a brain scan, they determined it is a form of ADHD with mild Asbergers. The best feedback they got was from the neurologist who said you HAVE to fix this before everybody labels him as odd and a troublemaker at school and in the neighborhood. Then he will start to live up to that label. Sadly, if you notice it that much, others do to and she'll lose friends and you might too. Seek medical opinions and do whatever tests you need to get to the root of the problem. People can be very judgmental and you don't want them judging you or her because of something that can be controlled.

Since you say that she is out of control, I think I would either consult with a doctor for medication or try an elimination diet if you'd rather have medications as your last resort.

Search on feingold diet. That's a good place to start. Yes it may be difficult changing your eating habits, but is it more difficult than dealing with your daughter's behavior?

If you want some other parents to commiserate with, go to groups.yahoo.com and join foodlabs. They're great and have a lot of first hand experience.

Catch he doing good and rewarding positive behavior. Give her things to focus on and do craft with. Find a form of discipline that works and stick with it and provide a structured environment.

Also, letting her see a therapist could help determine if she does need some additional help, especially if things get worse at school that is prohibiting her learning and if it is distracting.

I strongly recommend this book, it is easy to follow and makes a lot of sense. It could really help you out a lot as a lot of discipline techniques require more follow through for the child to get it over time. It has really helped us find ways to calm and focus our extremely energetic and creative 4 year old.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316779040/carroll...

In the meantime, here are some of his articles that can be helpful:
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t060100.asp