Is It the Same Thing?

I think it is a very fine line.

Caitlyn did not "become" transgender to get a job with status in the LGBT community. She did this to authenticate herself.

Granted she is now using the media for $$$$$$.

It is not clear that if this other woman changed her ethnicity to obtain a job with staus or if she truly believed this as her identity and just so happen to get the job.

For instance, my husband has been told his whole life he is 100% XYZ ethnicity. A few years ago, we were at a family gathering and found out he is not this ethnicity but 100% from a neighboring country. His family's ethnicity changed so they could escape Hitler in WWII, and kept the lie going because of fear of getting caught. His whole life, until this point, he took great pride in his XYZ ethnicity and told others his craftsmanship, cooking, personality is because he is 100% XYZ.....

Only to find out it is untrue.

He still struggles with his ethnic identity and still claims to be the incorrect one...But he gains no power or staus over others claiming this.

I guess that makes the difference for me.

Good question!

I think it's ok to accept people in terms of how they want to live. I think where I am kinda having mixed feelings is when someone who chooses to live their life differently now (Bruce Jenner) and the idea that he could and or may be allowed to have the olympic hall of fame change his name to Caitlin. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with transgenger or men/women living as the opposite sex or race... However, that which I wonder about is the going back and changing history aspect... if you already did something in a specific way or as a specific person and you go down in history for it and reap the benefits (and even if you don't reap any benefits) for it... should you be allowed to go back and say, ok I want the history but tweaked just a little bit... I don't know.. all this truly does bring up different topics of discussion..

as for discussing this with kids. I think honestly and openly and DO take into account a child's age when it comes to any discussion and decide whether they can handle the topic or perhaps the it can wait..

I think this speaks to a larger question of 'what the heck is going on' for a lot of people. Recently I read a few articles on people who 'identify' as disabled and there are those who champion this cause. They say that those who are living the lie of an able-bodied person are suffering because they want to be paralyzed or handicapped, limited, in some way and that society frowns on this.

What I mean to say by bringing this up is that there are a lot of people out there who will do what they can to bend reality to fit to their personal norms and desires, even if it is to the point of dismemberment. And each of these situations: transgender transformation, the desire to mutilate oneself, or the desire to be a different race-even to the point of lying about parentage-- needs to be seriously considered on its own merits.

I'll disagree with those who suggest that a question like this should ignite outrage or offense. Why can't we ask honest questions about things which genuinely confuse some people? When our beliefs about ourselves don't measure up their reality, people do suffer. I think we can all agree on that. My guess is that this is the same for all parties, the world over. When our realities don't reflect our beliefs in about our selves, we can be confused, angry, frustrated, feel powerless.....

How would I talk to my son about this? I think there would be a lot of "I don't know why so and so chose this...." because, really, I can't speak for that person. I would tell him that people do a lot of unusual or confusing things in this world and we don't have to understand it, we just need to treat everyone with kindness and respect. And that it must be hard to not be happy with yourself the way you are. There can be compassion there without outright condoning another person's decision.

I think as we go into the future, we will continue to see people being challenged by reality. How is that we can be open-minded about gender fluidity (even as it is deemed 'hardwired') but declare that race is only a state of mind? While I'm disappointed that this civic leader chose to lie about her heritage and her parents, I do wonder what happened for her to do this. Did she desire to 'be' black because she had adopted Black children and wanted to show them that being black was something to want to be? We can't begin to know what was going through her head; obviously, you can champion a race or group of persons without belonging to that group. I think it's good to ask ourselves these questions.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty socially liberal and have no problem with people doing what they want to do-- and I think conversations like this ARE warranted. It certainly made me think, and it's always good to chew on something instead of mindlessly deciding something is 'good/bad' because to say otherwise we fear being misunderstood or deemed as judgmental or, in the vernacular, "a hater". Questioning is not hating. Not questioning, however, does breed hatred and ignorance.

Apparently she passed herself off as black to study at Howard University, a predominantly African-American institution, the school assumed she was black and she received a full scholarship.
I think the outrage is not so much about how she lives but much more about her receiving funds that would otherwise have gone to a black person.
This is like faking a disability so you can use a disabled parking spot.
It's dishonest and fraud.

Try explaining/discussing reverse discrimination with your kids.
You can be the best you can be but be turned down for opportunities so that someone who doesn't score as well as you did is given a spot.
What a way to lower standards.

No, it's not the same Bruce changing gender to become Caitlyn.
Caitlyn did not pass herself off as anything for monetary gain.
She was a man and called Bruce when she won the Olympics - so any awards/recognition should be reflective of who she was at the time of the event - not her current situation.

That Rachel Dolezal is white and a leader in the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is not a problem - it seems they don't discriminate in hiring who ever wants to work for them regardless of their color/genetic background.

It's probably not a popular opinion but I think Affirmative Action has run it's course and it's time it was ended.

Additional:
Here is the article:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/12/us/washington-spokane-naacp...

Since when have belief and facts had anything to do with each other?
There's a Flat Earth Society - they really believe the earth is flat.
It's not - but you can't shake their belief not even if you put them into orbit and showed them the sphere that is our planet.

To start--the NAACP is supporting their employee. So the issue there is she has some sort of legal issue with her family, not her employer.
The NAACP doesn't care if she's purple--just that she's doing her job.
It's just more race baiting by the media in that example.

Caitlyn Jenner has every right to do whatever and live however she chooses--as long as she's not breaking any laws? Who cares?

How do I talk to my kid? I told him Bruce Jenner always felt like a woman inside and she's matching the outside to the inside now and says she's happier. How is that lying? It's 100% honest. Mental disorder? I don't think so.
I don't think he's very concerned at all about the race of an NAACP chapter...nor am I.

You've got to separate personal life from employment law when you try to compare these two very unrelated topics.

People have claimed to have Native American heritage for a long time. I lived in South Dakota for several years. Five of those years I lived in a "border town" and taught at a school for Lakota children. I had several friends and colleagues who were Lakota and from other tribes. I had a friend who was considered a Lakota elder. She had an adopted brother who was white (no Native Ametican blood relatives). He lived as a Lakota. But, she had a hard time accepting others who claimed they were Native American but had no legal right to it (geneology or legal adoption). Especially if they were getting any kind of gain from it. I remember having a conversation with her about a man in Arizona was claimed to be a Native American shaman who had been exposed as a fraud. He was running a business that catered to New Age religion. He led sweat lodges and he sold "authentic" Native American art that he had made. She was furious about that.

I also knew a man who as a young adult found adoption papers after his parents had both died. He had never known that he was adopted and that his birth parents were Lakota. His whole life he had always felt different from all of his friends and classmates. He said he always felt like he didn't belong or that something was missing. He could never figure out why. When he found out about his adoption and tracked down his birth family he said things all of a sudden seemed to fall into place. He said he started to feel "whole" for the first time in his life.

You often hear stories of people who grew up thinking they were white and then finding out they actually had great grandparents who were black and lived as white to avoid discrimination laws. Or people who never knew there were Jewish family in their geneology because they hid their religion to escape Nazi atrocities. Are their ancestors "frauds" for living as a white person or as a Christian? I don't know if there is an easy answer to it. If you are living that life for personal gain is that different than living that life for self-preservation or because you don't feel right in the skin you were born in? I don't know.

Is there "outrage" over this? haha!
All I know is that my own sister started hanging out exclusively with black kids in high school. She emulated them in every way, dressed like them, talked like them, listened to their music.
It was rather shocking to us because our family is just about as white as you can get.
So who knows, I never really thought about it or questioned it too much, it's just who she is, and how she fits into the world I guess. She's been this way for thirty years now.
I bet if there was surgery to change her skin/hair color/texture she would do it!

Transsexual gene link identified
"Australian researchers have identified a significant link between a gene involved in testosterone action and male-to-female transsexualism."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm

Transgender isn't just "I feel, therefore I am". There is a lot more to it. There is a lot to go through before a doctor will sign off on allowing an individual to begin transition and hormone therapy. I know, personally, 2 trans* individuals. One I have known since before they were born and I've known this person's mother since high school. The other person is an identical twin and is very vocally sharing her transition via public blogs and videos. Being transgendered has nothing to do with I would rather wear a dress and makeup and be more like societies ideal of feminine. A cross-dresser is not a trans person. Most cross-dressers, most famously Eddie Izzard, do not want to be female and do not feel as though they are in the wrong body. They simply like what society has labeled as female clothing better or in addition to what society has labeled as male clothing.

In this case, to answer the question more directly. Unless one of her parents is African-American her simply "feeling like she's black" is not her actually being "black born in a white person's body". Furthermore, if she's doing it as a way to garner attention, support and aid she otherwise would not get if she wasn't black then she's lying to take advantage of a situation.
Caitlyn Jenner is not lying about who she is in order to get attention. It is not a mental disorder that needs to be "cured". Before going through transition she, and any trans individual, have to go through extensive counseling, blood work and have to continue through the entire process and beyond.

Just because people do not understand about Trans* individuals does not make them wrong, ill, in need of curing, a sexual deviant, lying, attention seeking, or anything else. Every trans individual I know of have known since a very young age, like 3, 4 or 5 years young. Look up the famous musician Wendy Carlos, formally Walter Carlos. She made her transition in 1979. Go to Google and search "Biology of Transgender" which is how I came to the BBC news article I started with.
Transgender individuals have a staggering suicide rate, not because they regret their decision to transition because it was wrong, but because of the horrors they face once they choose to do what is right for themselves. Attacks, both physical and verbal on trans individuals is among the highest of all bullying. Here locally we've lost several individuals in just the last few months. http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/ Google search "suicide rates of transgender" and you will find some truly heart breaking results.
Another thing to look into is Native American "Two-Spirits". http://www.nativepeoples.com/Native-Peoples/May-June-2014...

Society needs to move away from a gender binary that does not truly exist.

I think that because both people aren't confessing that they have a mental illness many take offense. If they were mentally ill, I believe society wouldn't be so judgmental. They probably would just say " oh, that's why.." Or " that explains it" . These kinds of stories are still somewhat taboo today.

For the lady pretending to be black AND to be a NAAACP leader is quite hilarious to me. I'm not offended by it. I do think it's ridiculous. Is it lying- well, yes. Is it ok? - probably not considering she is misrepresenting herself. If she did have a mental disorder, well, " that explains it" .

To Caitlin Jenner- I understand it more. She hid as a women for years inside a man's body. So she wasn't at all honest with her family or herself.

I get what you are saying. I just can't seem to say whether they both are the same or different on a scale. Very thought provoking! I thought I had an answer to this, and now I'm stumped!

As to what I tell my kid about all this. Yes, it's wrong to not be yourself. To hide and be ashamed, or be fake and put on an act to get what you want in life. You should always be proud and confident in yourself, and if you aren't- well be honest and we will work on it!

Now I'm gonna be thinking about this all weekend! To think all I was pondering about before this was what I wanted for dinner! 😁❤️

whats the difference between "living as a black" and living as a white?
don't all people regardless of color or gender live as people?
and why do people have to make a big deal about it? can't we all just live our lives and not be judged by our fellow people?

no one is perfect, no one is "normal"

From what I have read so far, the outrage is not necessarily on the fact that she portrayed herself as black but that she lied about being oppressed and disparaged because she is black. Honestly, we have talked--prior to even Bruce/Caitlyn--about people dressing as others or acting other or changing the way they look so my kids have always been "exposed" to other lifestyles. This is the world we live in and I try my best to teachmy children to be tolerant of others even if they do not agree.

My father always told us "I may not agree with what you have to say or with your opinion, but I will stand by and defend with you if needed". Of course, it usually had an argument or 2 beforehand but he never told you that you were just plain wrong (though he was usually right).. :)

The first thing that popped into my head was "how does a white person live as a black person?" I can't even think how that is done. I am going to have to Bing this and see for myself!

Interesting, though, regarding talking to kids about this kind of stuff. We did recently have a dinner discussion about Bruce/Caitlyn and it was "lively" shall we say :) My kids are a little older, but basically we have the rule - you can say what you want, you can believe what you want, but you cannot criticize what others at the table say, and you cannot interrupt when it is other's turn to talk. I really enjoy listening to my kids point of views - especially since they change from year to year on their stances on things. If my kids were young, I wouldn't even bring it up unless they did.

I will be watching this post to see what others think about this. Hmmmmm . . . . what an interesting world we live in!

I haven't heard yet about this latest one.

I am so confused nowadays...I don't know what to think. But regardless, I am kind to everyone and what they claim is their authentic self.

I guess we can all claim whatever we darn well want to and society has to accept it.

I know I am a 140lb, flat chested mom/wife with a 115 lb, C cup bombshell of a woman ready to bust out at any moment. Oh..wait..that would take severely cutting back on my my eating habits, exercising way more than I already do and very invasive surgery.

Soooo, I will just exist how I was created and accept it and make the best of the amazingly healthy body I have.

I am not a doctor so I can't dictate whether it is a mental disorder or not. The brain, brain chemicals and nature vs. nurture causes us to do and claim many illogical things.

We talk to our kids about whatever they have questions about. Some things we don't need to bring up to them and other things we need to initiate conversation about. This is one I don' think we have to bring up but we would have no problem talking it out and looking at various new sources.

I cannot say this person is lying or not because I haven't even read about it or heard about this situation. But..you bet I will as soon as I finish typing :) But my knee jerk reaction is calling her bluff.

I personally love questions like this that gets conversation and opinions flying.

Personally, I think the truth matters. That woman claimed to be black. She is not black regardless of how she feels. She is a fraud. Also, I will call Caitlyn Jenner Caitlyn because that is what he wants to be called but even if he has surgery to remove his male parts he is still a man with XY DNA.

Google "transabled," these are perfectly healthy people that identify as being disabled. One woman with working legs chooses to use a wheel chair. Another man cut off his hand because he didn't feel like it belonged to him.

In my opinion, the truth is more important than feelings. What a mixed up world we will live in if we teach our children that feelings trump everything else. I may feel like I have royal blood running through my veins, I may really feel like a princess but I better not buy a diamond crown and jet off traveling around the world because the fact is I am not a princess and I can not afford to do those things regardless of how I feel. 😊

Here's my thought.

I feel "Native American" in my spirit...so put me on the official role and then give me all the benefits of being born into a tribe or clan. I need some dental work and health care stuff so yeah, let's do this.

I feel "Black" in my spirit so I want to go to a mostly white university and apply for scholarships set aside for minorities. Yeah, I can get tons of extra money for college.

You are born with certain things and there isn't much that can be done about that.

My grandfather was born in the middle of the Civil War and "might" have been born on a reservation in Alabama. The Indian Wars with Custer made a HUGE impact on him. He denied being any Indian to anyone, ever.

He lived as a white man overall and never talked about Indian heritage to non family members. Yet he told my mom and her siblings that he was Cherokee or Choctaw, I can't remember. He looked full blood and my mom looked at least half. It would be wonderful if I could trace this man back and get tribal benefits because they are way better than any other system.

Not that the benefits would be the only thing I'd want. It is a huge wonderful thing they have and I'm surrounded by people that never have to worry about going to the doctor or getting dental work done or having a whole group of people to stand beside them in times of need.

I'd love to know I had a heritage that I could find out more about what my ancestors lived through. But every other line of my genealogy keeps on going but my grandfather? He stops right there and doesn't go anywhere else.

I'd love to just decide I could be Native American and go force them to let me have that heritage. But I can't. Why? Because being born into a certain ethnic group means a lot more.

Love Missy F's answer.

I think if she's mentally ill and really believes she is black, this is no different than any ill person claiming to be Queen of England. If she just wants to be black so lied about being black, that is different. Bruce Jenner now is biologically changing to become a female (or already has) so he's not lying about his gender. Rather he wanted to be a different gender. He didn't tell everyone he always felt female that so maybe he lied by omission but that's a irrelevant technicality in my mind. It was a private issue. If Bruce hasn't gotten female parts and is telling people he is a woman, then he's lying and I don't think he's actually mentally ill. He would know he's lying. So to me depends on whether someone is delusional vs lying vs hiding bc of public opinion. I've seen a picture of this woman and I can't believe anyone believed she was black. She looks very white with a tan. If it came up with my kids, that's the distinction I would try to make. Knowingly lying is different than being mentally ill and believing what you're saying.

We are all just 6 degrees of separating, so most likely, we are all black.

IMO
I don't think any of it should be accepted as "normal", these are medical conditions people are suffering from and no matter what is done to change the physical appearance they are still the same people inside. So no matter what Bruce Jenner does he will always be a male and the other person will always be white.

With seeing so much of this lately these people still have the same mental issues after surgeries and then they realize they are trying to live a lie and end up with much bigger problems.

I think doctors should be looking into what would cause this and not just give hormones and sex changes to accommodate it. I question the use of so many pesticides, herbicides, GMO's, etc..

FYI: there are also many people that will get tattoos and implants to look like animals, reptiles and comic villains. Are they "normal" too?