Hitting Back?

I taught my daughter that she was never to hit first, but that if she was hit, to hit back and hit hard.

As she learns words she can say NO loudly and shake her finger at him. This is a stage that some kids go through.

Your daughter is in your CHURCH toddler class and your husband wants to teach her to HIT BACK when someone hurts her? Does that not strike you as a bit off kilter?

Assertive isn't hitting back. That's aggressive... Like Paul.

If you want her to be assertive, teach her to tell Paul "No!" "Stop!" "Don't hit!" and to stay away from him. Those are ways she can stand up for herself. ALSO teach her to go get help from an adult. It isn't tattletaling when your goal is to save yourself... a tattletale is someone to tells on another kid to get that kid in trouble.

I teach my children to treat others how they want to be treated, even if they've been treated badly. This precludes hitting. Glad I did that because in our school, if you hit, whether it's first or second, you're punished. Period. You don't tell children to hit, ever.

Your daughter should not be required to protect herself at this age. The issue is the toddler class is not providing enough supervision. They need to assign and adult to 'shadow' the aggressive child and distract him/provide an acceptable alternative BEFORE he hits or bites. Isn't the state requirement for that age lower than 1:8.

Your daughter is too young to either defend or protect herself. It is the adult's responsibility to do that. Hitting at this age is common. The goal is to help the child doing the hitting to not hit. He is too young to learn from a time out because his brain has not developed enough to learn abstract concepts. An adult needs to intervene before he hits or show him what to do instead after he hits. With either scenario an adult should separate him from child he is hitting. That is the reason regulations require more adults at this age.

I doubt that a church nursery that doesn't charge for their service has to comply. However I suggest that you use the ratio for staffing. I also suggest that those working in the nursery learn ways to stop the boy and protect the girl.

I also suggest that the adults accept that this behavior is common at this age; that the boy has reached the age at which he needs help learning what is acceptable behaviour. Sounds like your husband is angry. Hitting back is an angry and aggressive responce. We teach best when we can remain calm.

Your daughter is way to young to worry about her being passive. Being passive at this age is OK. When she is older you can teach her to be assertive. She may always be more of an observer than one who immediately gets involved. That, too, is ok. We can't all be outgoing and active. Can you imagine a world in which everyone is active and no one observes? Think of the energy involved if everyone is an extrovert.

It might help you be more comfortable with your daughter's personality if you learn about personality types and how they fit in the world.

You can teach her to say "No, that hurts". That should alert the adults nearby that something is wrong.

But as a bigger issue, you need to have a policy in place in the toddler class. One bite (hit, pinch, etc.) a warning to the parent. Second, kid sits out a couple of classes. 4 or more instances, he is invited not to return til next year.

If there are at least 3 adults in the room with 6-8 kids, why in the world isn't someone behind this aggressive boy?

Silly for your husband to want to teach your daughter to *defend* herself at 20 months old. At this age the only thing to do is protect her.

Hitting back is not the go-to solution for little kids.

My son is nearly seven, and only recently have we told him to defend himself if a certain kid--- who is a known bully-- is hurting him and he can't find an adult.

Teaching them to 'hit back' at a young age means that you don't teach them the socially appropriate options which your child will be held accountable for in preschool and elementary school. "If someone hurts you, go find a grown-up" should be the answer.

If she isn't able to communicate her upset and to report when she's hurt, hitting is not the answer. She doesn't have the critical thinking skills to know when hitting is justified and when it isn't. My advice to your husband would be to get his little girl enrolled in martial arts when she is older-- five or six-- and start there. You can do puppet play when she has more expressive language and role play that sort of assertiveness you want to see. Staying close/social coaching is appropriate for the age.

Honestly, my son is NOT very assertive when it comes to peers, so I know how frustrating this is. That said, being taught to hit early on will only wind up in being the ONLY tool. You want that to be the last resort. So, social coaching/role playing is what you do for now.

You got a lot of great responses with the correct idea: Do not teach her to hit back. Teach her to say a specific form of NO and also -- to walk away!

This will be hard to teach a two-year old but you can start.

Three other things do need to happen here, though:

1. The boy needs to be removed. Period. I don't care if mom is the children's program director; the other parents and teachers need to go to her and say kindly and lovingly but FIRMLY: Paul is hitting or throwing in every class session. Eventually a child will be hurt. Time outs are not working (and clearly they are not -- he is too young! At two, most kids do not yet connect a time out with the action they did to be put there). I would not want my child in any program where the DIRECTOR did not have enough good sense -- and humility -- to know that any child who does what he is doing so consistently is not yet mature enough for that classroom setting. She is also setting up your church for trouble: What if a visitor brings a child into this classroom and Paul wallops the new kid? You'd lose a possible new family and could end up with someone going over the director's head to report her own son.

He hits "to show affection" so she's letting him get away with it. She should not be in charge of a kids' program if she thinks that hitting to show affection is actually an excuse. Why do the rest of you swallow that excuse from her?

2. Your husband needs to learn a LOT more about child development and about behavior expected of kids today. Please get him some good books on child development. Teaching a child of 10 who is being bullied to hit back could work in certain circumstances, but a two-year-old is many many years away from having the least idea of when to hit or not hit. Teaching her to hit back at two will end up with her hitting another kid because in all innocence she thought it was the right time to do so. She lacks any ability to determine when or when not to hit back and if he wants to teach her that at two -- or at four, or any time, really -- he does not understand how her mind works. He needs to learn and to understand WHY what he wants is not at all appropriate.

3. He also needs to know that if hitting back was what he was taught as a kid, those days are over. Schools - even preschools - have zero tolerance policies these days. When your child begins school she will be considered as guilty as the other kid if someone hits her and she hits back -- SHE will be punished even if she's defending herself, in most cases. He will be setting her up for that if he preaches that hitting back is OK. I'm sorry to say it because a kid should be able to defend himself or herself if in real danger, but it's the fact: The kids who hit back are lumped with the aggressors unless maybe a teacher witnesses every second of the interaction....She needs the better equipment: The abiltiy to say NO every single time and to remove herself immediately from the situation.

And it's way past time for Paul to GO for a least a time. Not forever. But it sounds like maybe the parents and the teachers are either scared of mom since she's in charge, or a bit too softly "understanding" of her many obligations at church. Sorry, this is not about her busy schedule meaning she can't watch him; it's about a child who makes other children not enjoy church (do you really want that?) and a child who just isn't ready for this class. It is not a black mark forever if he's removed for a few months but it makes the program look bad if he's left there to do this weekly.

And with your daughter - it sounds as if you think this will toughen her up and teach her to deal with these situations, but it's just as likely that it's only teaching her to associate church with being hurt and scared.

In a few years (when she's 4 or maybe 6) maybe you can sign her up for taekwondo.
In the mean time toddlers don't have the judgement to know when hitting back is appropriate.
Since you stay in the toddlers class you can either shadow your daughter and be right there for when this kid starts in with the hitting/kicking/biting.
Or you (or another Mom - the teacher can't spend her time doing it) can shadow him and intervene (physically separate him from his victims) when he starts acting up.

I have no idea how you teach a 20 month old to hit. I certainly don't know how you teach her to hit sometimes but not other times.

I don't know why speaking up for your safety or if you're in pain is being a tattletale. But I also don't know if you can teach her this at 20 months anyway.

I also question why 6-8 toddlers are overwhelming 2-3 adults and no one is seeing what's going on. The teacher needs to isolate this Paul, or tell his parents that he's not yet ready for Sunday school. But I think kids don't learn how to socialize unless they are given that opportunity. So removing him doesn't help that happen.

Kids need to learn to use their words - that means Paul needs to learn to express his frustration without hitting, and your daughter needs to learn to speak up. Sometimes a loud "OW!" gets the teacher's attention without "tattling" or anything specific being said. But if your daughter isn't reacting enough to get noticed, then she's either not hurt, or she's too reticent to say anything.

"Be gentle" isn't working with Paul. It's way too vague anyway, and he's too young to understand. So he needs to lose out on whatever he is doing so that he realizes hitting gets him less fun and fewer privileges, and those consequences need to be immediate. The first time he uses his hands, he should be redirected. But 3 kids per Sunday is habitual.

The other thing is for the parents to rotate staying in the class, so that Paul's parents can see this happening. And if they find out from the teacher that Paul had to go to another room with another parent, or if they have to summoned from whatever adult program they are involved in because "Paul is not having a good day and can't stop hitting" then they'll step in and be more aware.

I understand your husband wants his daughter to be safe. But his strategy is ineffective, impossible to implement, and will only result in another child being removed from the classroom for hitting.

I think the answer here is to yes tell your daughter to say 'NO'. But also tell the mother of the little boy she can no longer just drop him off, she must stay and monitor his behavior. The mother is responsible to teach her son not to hit. She is responsible to socialize her son.

We teach our daughter that the friendship is not working out and to find something else to do or play with someone else.

Hitting back is unacceptable in our home for several reasons. As an adult you cannot hit back, so why start. It teaches aggression. And, our daughter is double the weight of her friends and has about 6 - 8 inches in height on most of them. She will hurt them if she hits back. Your little one will not understand a little kid hitting from someone her own size.

paul needs a shadow. these kids are too young for elaborate reasoning and rationalizations, and i agree with you that 'teaching' your daughter to hit will have serious repercussions in the future (she's too young for martial arts training, and just saying 'hit back' will make her unwelcome everywhere she goes.) but since you guys know paul has impulse control issues, it's your job to protect the others. someone needs to be assigned to stay with paul and prevent problems before they occur.
teaching your daughter 'no' is of course sensible and necessary.
khairete
S.

Oh, mama! My dd has been in the same daycare/preschool since she was an infant and this is a battle we've been waging for nearly 5 years (she's 5 1/2)! I get so frustrated that there's a "policy" of non-violence in the classrooms, yet my daughter has been bitten, pushed, slapped, sat on, tripped, and punched numerous times! There are a few specific kids who are the main culprits... I've discussed with the teachers, the director, and the parents directly. I am at the verge of this same dilemma. I'm ready to teach my girl to punch back! She's a very sweet, considerate, and shy kid and we've done the "find someone else to play with," "just stay away from so-and-so," "yell out 'don't hit/push/bite me!'" Each one worked for a little while, but with some kids, they will just always find a way to get away with acting out like this. It's frustrating! For all the aggressive behaviors that have been directed at my daughter (some causing bruising, scrapes, and broken skin), she has NEVER purposely caused physical harm to ANY other child! All I can ask is Why are these kids allowed to stay in the classroom and continue to bully the other kids?!

Okay, sorry, enough of my rant. I agree with others that your dd is too young to be taught to "fight back." Teaching her to do her best to avoid the situations is 1st defense. Next is learning to be vocal "Do Not Hit/Push/Touch Me!" Practice with her--teach her to use her LOUDEST voice. We even discussed with dd that kids who bully do not like to get that negative attention--the adults will be drawn to the situation and he will get in trouble (and hopefully embarassed). The boy needs more discipline. And, if the behaviors continue, some repercussions (involving the parents) should be enforced (he's not allowed back without a parent, interrupt parent's work). These kinds of behaviors won't stop on their own--and they only get worse (more damaging) as the kid gets older!

Your daughter is too young to be responsible for this, BUT, you CAN be more assertive about the parent of that child I think and possibly have that child removed.

Here's what happened to me-a little background first. I was raised in a house where if my brother or I ever hurt another child, my parents would have seriously stung our butts. I don't remember that happening, but it was understood that it was a capital offense and we did NOT hurt other kids. We did not grow up to be bullies. Or violent people, or anything else. My kids similarly were firmly dealt with for their very first attempts at hitting, kicking biting, whatever, and each of them only tried one of those things ONCE. Beyond that I could trust them anywhere with any kids.

So I have NO PATIENCE for the parents of violent toddlers who passively and gently occasionally "discipline" them with time outs and redirection and what nots while they continue to act aggressively. Because they're allowing their kids to be violent. And to be honest, if the parents won't handle their little bullies, one day their kid is going to hit the WRONG kid and the logical consequence will be for them to get their clock cleaned by a kid who DOES hit back. And they'll deserve it.

ANYWAY, there was a 3 year old like that in my gym daycare. When my son was 2 1/2, the kid would routinely hit my son. My son was getting nervous to go in there and scared of the child. So I approached the mom and said, "Your son has been hitting and biting mine. The daycare girl confirms it. How do you intend to control your child?" She said she would tell the daycare worker to give him a time out. So I said, "She has been giving him time outs but it does no good. I will be allowing my son to defend himself, just so you are aware of that."

I MEAN c'MON, if you can't keep your kid from hurting others, then STAY HOME WITH THE KID til they outgrow it-wth?!!!

I literally physically rehearsed how to fight the kid back with my son AND I told the daycare worker about it. She was OK with it because the kid was aggressive to other kids as well. Sure enough, the kid hit my son and my son pushed him with all his might and the kid fell down and started screaming like the world was coming to an end. And he never bugged my son again. Remarkably, the mom KEPT bringing her son in, but not long after, her son picked up a toy truck and hit an infant in the head with it. The father of that baby tore into the mother with much less politeness than I had, and she finally quit coming to the gym.

My kids all know it's OK to fight back. It's really never too young to learn to tell on an attacker, hit back, whatever it takes to keep from being a victim. My kids also know how to stand up for other kids now that they are older. My youngest daughter is now 4. She's always been a firecracker. She always tears into any kids that are pushing her or hitting her or whatever. I've never even had to coach her, she just attacks! But never first-she knows that's not allowed. Unless it's her brother, sometimes she does start stuff with him...

But back to your daughter. If she is gentle and shy, then this kid needs to be dealt with not her. I wouldn't teach her to fight back if it's not her nature. I'd protect her until she's a bit older. That mom needs to be told she has to stay with her son because he's hurting other kids.

I think better training would be to duck and weave. You don't really want to empower violence. Especially when she is really too young to get when it is appropriate and when it is not. In other words you don't want her to be the next hitter.

Teach her to pay attention and not get hit in the first place, problem solved.

Make sure that when you teach her what to say, you teach her to be specific. For example, don't teach her to say "don't do that." Teach her to say "don't hit me" or "don't throw anything at me." She needs to say it in a firm voice, but without yelling. I know she's only 20 months, but hopefully she is verbal enough for 2-4 word sentences. If not, simply "no hit" or "no throw" (or "don't hit/throw, if she can say don't) would be better.

Paul definitely needs more consequences though. I think any adult in the room - not just the teachers - should be authorized to put him in time out if they see him do something to another child. I realize the position his mom is in, but that doesn't make it ok for him to behave the way that he does. Perhaps his mom needs to designate another adult to stay in the classroom and be responsible for him. Or, they need stricter punishment - one incident equals instant time out. A second incident the same day and he's benched for the rest of the day. He can sit and color or be given one specific activity and not be allowed to do anything else.

As the parent of a child who has been bullied, I feel for you. I agree with Thea and Dana that she needs to be vocal if something is done to her -- shouting "No!" should bring attention to whatever's going on. It does sound like the boy who is hitting your daughter is not well supervised or disciplined if he's doing this to his older siblings. He needs to be better supervised or removed from the class and taught to not be physical. As for my son, yes, I told him to shove back *hard* and be assertive, but only if he was hit first, and not until he was about 6 years old.