Help Me Help My Daughter - San Jose,CA

OY! What a pickle! Unfortunately your daughter has no reason to leave, why should she?? She gets free food, free lodging, babysitting...Can I come live there too??? I can see your predicament and having been there with a 25 year old son I can sympathize! The difference is your grandchildren. IF it were just her I would suggest you give her 4 months to get out. 4 months is plenty of time to find a job/jobs, save 4 pay checks (ALL money is to be saved for getting out) and she needs to find a place to stay. PERIOD. If she doesn't do this you will change the locks the first of April. It sounds tough but it is the only way to get immature adult kids OUT.

The issue is the grandkids. You are going to have to help her figure that one out. Set up daycare, tell the lazy BF to watch HIS KIDS or find a daycare once she starts working.

We had to do this with our son 3 years ago. He was angry and we heard "that's sooo unfair!" more times than I have heard from my 11 year old daughter. Now he has a steady job, pays his child support and is a responsible citizen. About a year and half ago he called and thanked us for "kicking him in the butt". Life isn't completely easy, he still has back child support and old bills sitting over his head but he is taking care of himself.
Unless you want your daughter to always be with you and possibly bring another child into the house (seriously, what do you think she is DOING all night??) I would do this. Good luck hun, DEEP breath! I know it isn't easy....

When I was 19 I got pregnant with my daughter, and due to one worse case scenario playing out after another (her father was diagnosed with cancer while I was 4 mos preg, given 6 mos to live, in and out of the hospital, etc.) so I (we on good weeks) had to live with my parents. The rules were, they paid for all of my education related bills so long as I was a full time student and maintained a job, even while all of the cancer stuff was going on. I was responsible for all of my personal money and everything for my daughter. Now, I did get money for Reese b/c of the cancer, I got SSI for her, but it was seriously minimal ($300 month.) If I were to drop out of school or graduate we were out, obviously with a little bit more leeway with the graduation. We knew another family who had been in a similar situation and this was also the way that they handled it.

What I would recommend doing is sitting her down and clearly laying out your rules. Make her get a job in addition to attempting to go to school. I am pretty sure McDonald's and Wal Mart are always hiring, so if she were really interested in having an income she would have applied there. She needs to contribute to the household in some way, be it financially or through cooking and cleaning, the important thing is that no matter what happens it has to be on your terms, not hers. The kids are hers, no matter how much you do for them, and the way she raises them should up to her, but the cleanliness of their room and hers should be up to your standards. When you sit down and explain all of this to her I would also have her sign a contract, google room mate contracts, there are all sorts of free ones, but the benefit of the contract is that there is no wiggle room for immature excuses.

Now onto the boys. If you are basically doing all of the work and raising them for the majority of the time, then you should have more say. If she wants to make the rules then she needs to be there to enforce them, period. I only asked my mom if I could stay away while she watched Reese once, for 2 days while I went out of town, and I lived there for 2 years with Reese. She keeps going away because she knows that the boys are in good hands, what if you were to go out for a night? One night go straight from work to dinner and a movie with your husband, treat yourself for a while. If she is mad when you get home ask her why, remind her who's kids they are, and who's responsibility they are.

If she can't abide by your rules then she needs to leave. Helping your daughter out is one thing, being walked all over day and night is a completely separate issue. I know that you are concerned about the boys, but if you were to ask for temporary custody while she got up and on her feet what would be the difference between what you have now? Your daughter being a competent role model isn't your problem, its hers, and all that you are doing right now is enabling her. The key here is to just say no, its going to hurt, and she may throw a temper tantrum, but you need to do what is right for the boys.

Good luck!

Hello P., My heart is so sad that you are going through this.
I know that you are seeking advice but as the mother of 5 children and having raised several foster children over the years, ans being a Child Advocate, I have got to ask WHY are you allowing her to take advantage of you? She is a parent now. It is her responsibility to raise those children not yours. I know from the experiance as a parent of mine and the foster children, the results of what happens to the children of parents that are sleeping around, not being held accountable to the actions that they take.
I have to say that at some point all this is going to come and bite her in the fanny. She will recieve a bill to reimburse the money that she shouldn't have recieved, some friend that gets mad at her will turn her into CPS, and then they will do the research. For her to not be there and leave her children so that she can go play is not only awful but abandonment.. even if she has left them with you-- if its a deal that is like you have decribes I have seen it.
I have recieved children in the middle of the night, taken from Grandparents that not only adore and love them but had to make a choice to help their future in case they are not there in the years to come. She wants to blow this off, because she has been given permission to do so. So now it will help you and the little ones to get some councling, and consider taking full custody so that you are not apart of the yo-yo, effect. Then kick her out.
I have see parents(Grandparents) that have been threatened by the DA office, for helping the childs(your daughter) parent to embezzle( and that is what she is doing stealing) the money that has come.
You might find a church, or organization that has counciling and a Tough Love Class, I know one woman that teaches a court mandated parenting class and any of that will be helpful for you.
I have 12 Grandchildren, several are from the foster children that we had here in our home that we are still close to. I cheerish all of them and enjoy them all but it is not my responsibility to raise a second family when I am taking the act of adult behavior from them.
I have known one family that helped their daughter who was as irresponsible as yours, to give her children up for adoption and they are now with a family that treasures them and sends her pictures every year and she still sees them 1 time a year. In reality that is better than what she's been doing. By the way the Grandparents are still in the childrens lives.
I wish you well and that your daughter will get the guts to be an adult and think of the children and not herself!
Feel free to contact me, if you want support. Nana Glenda

Yikes! First of all I can sure hear Dr. Phil saying "What are you thinking?!"
I also realize that you are first and foremost considering the welfare of your innocent grand babies and you like to have them safe and sound under your roof because you have become so attached to them. Normally a daughter would be married, out of the house, have her kids, and you would visit them or they you and you wouldn't be constantly worried on a daily basis about their survival.
BUT....
Your daughter is using you and the system to remain a "little girl" and not taking on responsibilities of adulthood. Spoiled would be the term.
When you give too much it's almost always taken advantage of.
Your daughter can't grow up while living with you. She is still stuck in child mode because she's living with her parents and living the same dynamic that she has always lived with. Mom and Dad go to work and provide for her. She had a failure to launch for some reason.
You say she is 25, has been unable to finish education allowing her to move on.... maybe she did that on purpose?
You need to go back 7 years as if she were 18 and make the new rules for an adult child living in your home.
I would say "It's time for you to get your own life Daughter Dear." New rules are as follows: I will not babysit your children 7 nights a week for you to go out and party. I will watch your children if you are working, and your rent will be 30% of your monthly income from now on." If she's receiving govt subsidy money to take care of her children you need 30% of that right off the top. Curfew needs to be in place! She needs to realize that staying out all night is not what Mom's do! Have her take the kids with her when she goes out, you will soon see b/f not being as interested in spending time with her. Make her find ways to have someone else watch the kids if she wants to be out, no one else will watch them for free. I know you cringe at letting her take responsibility for her kids because you feel like they belong to you, but they dont! They belong to her and you have to trust that after a few times of feeling uncomfortable with the care they might be receiving from someone other than her trusted mother, she may re-think things.
I would tell her it's time for you to turn her room into your new sewing/craft/reading/whatever room and she needs to find lodging elsewhere.
This may mean that she might run off, take the kids, move in with b/f or his mother..... but she won't like it and it will make her realize that she needs income to survive and raise her kids proper.
You have to allow her to face the harsh realities of life, she hasnt had a taste of it so she has no idea what to do.
I am an apartment manager, managing a low income, govt subsidized complex. I have many single mothers here. Rent is based on their welfare income, they pay 30% of that income for rent. Most of them get a food stamp allotment, and most of them are enrolled in college and receive grant money. I've watched many of them graduate, get jobs and move on from here to their own little house.
You need to tell her "no more", have her apply at some low income apartment complexes (most have waiting lists) and once she's called for an apartment you help her move in and then let it go and let her grow up. The grandkids will survive, I have a lot of kids here that are all happy and well cared for by their single mommys. You have to force her out into the world, and she will thank you later and so will the babies.... because your daughter will grow up and be a good, caring mother just like you.... but only after you make her go do it.

Hi P.,
I know you've had many responses already. There is only one thing I didn't see that would help you and your daughter make the choice that would work best for you and that is family counseling. If she is on MediCal, I know they will pay for counseling, so you wouldn't even have to pay out of pocket for it and it certainly sounds like she could use it, both on her own and with you.
I was the daughter 22 year old with 2 kids living with my parents once upon a time. I was more proactive than your daughter, but it is overwhelming to be in that position. I also had a boyfriend (who is now my husband) but we only saw each other once a week. I would never have thought to ask to go out nightly or not be the one home at night when my little ones woke up.
I learned there are a number of programs to help single moms get on their feet. You may have to be the proactive one to get the ball rolling, but I would look into programs like Section 8 Housing and the like.
I think first and foremost get into some counseling so you have a place to communicate your upset and the counselor can help you two make good agreements. Hopefully, the counselor will also make her realize what her responsibility is in raising her children.

Blessings to you for taking care of the children. It may be time for some tough love though for your daughter...

WoW!!! How upsetting!!! I'm sorry to hear you have to go through this. I personally would have her sign the kids over to you...you adopt them...tell her she has 30 days to get a job or enroll in school or she is no longer welcome to stay in your house. Tell her to go live with her boyfriend since she would rather be with him then her own babies. Or...you can make her stay home at night (every night)and take care of those babies. She made her bed now she must lie in it!!! If she gets snappy towards the children then you snap at her and tell her that your her mamma and YOU are the boss!!! Take a piece of the computer so that it doesn't work during the day while you are at work...and tell her that while the babies are at daycare you should be out looking for a job. I'm sorry if I sound mean or too harsh, but I think she needs a slap of reality or she going to look back at her life and regret how she was. You, Grandma...are doing a wonderful job!!! You just need to put your foot down now and tell her things are changing and it startes by her cleaning that dirty room of hers. I hope any and all advice from all the mommies here will help you! Good luck! ~S.~

One of your responders mentioned Dr. Phil. Too bad you didn't see it yesterday (November 10th) His topic? Lazy husbands and Cling-on Kids. If you can find a way to see it, do. The mother and daughter that he spent most of the time on could have been you and your daughter. Go take a look at it via his website.

http://www.drphil.com/slideshows/slideshow/5389/?id=5389&...

All I can say P. is I wish you all of the luck and my prayers are with you. It is very hard when any children are involved. Maybe you should give her an ultimatum of either get a job or go back to school or get out. I know this may not be in the best interest for your sweet Grandchildren, but then where do you really draw the line? It is never easy.

I wish I had more to offer, truely I do. Maybe you should check out Dr. Phil.com

I don't know what county you live in, but I am fairly familiar with the process of filing for guardianship. There is nothing, to my knowledge, that says you cannot file for guardianship, even with the children's mother living in the same home. Guardianship would allow you to be authorized to make educational, medical and, if you file for "guardianship of the estate," financial decisions for the children. This would protect you in the event that your daughter cannot be reached and there is some sort of decision that needs to be made. It would further protect you if, in the event that your daughter gets mad and decides to use the twins as emotional punishment against you, she tries to take them from your home and prevent you from seeing them (which, as we all know, would hurt the children more than anyone else).

I agree with many who have said that you are enabling your daughter. I encourage you to look at why and how you have found yourself in this situation -- examine why it is that you have avoided laying down the law before now? Clearly, it is mostly about the well-being of your grandchildren, but it also has something to do with the dynamic between you and your daughter. Do some self-reflection and figure out what has prevented you from tolerating this behavior from your child. After you have done that, decide what it is that you can live with in your home. Be very clear with her: put it in writing, and have you, your husband, and your daughter all sign it, like a contract. Use dates, too, so that it is clear (i.e., "Find work or enroll in school by such-and-such date," "Begin paying rent in x amount by ...", etc).

Back to the guardianship issue: First, keep in mind that guardianship should not be used as a punishment for your daughter -- the idea is that it will promote stability and protection for the children. If you decide to go this route, bear in mind that the parent, at any time, can file a petition with the court to have the guardianship terminated -- you can have a conversation with your daughter about this: "I'm doing this so that the children will have stability, but in the event you get yourself together and can care for them, I want you to be the parent, and I will gladly end the guardianship whenever you are ready to step up and parent them appropriately."

An alternative to filing for guardianship but also authorizing you to make educational and medical decisions for the children is to fill out, sign, and have notarized a "Caregiver Affadavit." Google that term online, and you should be able to find something that you can print out. This is a step down from guardianship, in that the mother will still have every right to take her children out of your home, but it is something to consider.

Good luck!

you are enabling her. stop.

This sounds very familiar to me! My daughter now has FIVE children and has just over the last year or so started to become a responsible mother. The one thing that I learned was that the more I was willing to do for her, the less she did for herself! I, like you, always stepped in because I didn't want the kids to suffer. Now, years later, I realize that I should have backed out much earlier and yes, let the kids suffer. Unless you are willing to continue to do everything for her and the kids forever, back off now. The kids will suffer slightly (they live with you so you know they won't suffer too much - they will eat and have a home and right now, they don't realize that their room is a mess! You need to tell her that from this point forward, she is responsible for the children and then let her be. Do not do anything for her or the kids - that's her job. Also, do not continue to babysit so she can run around all night. If she wants to go out, she has to either make other babysitting arrangements outside of your home or take the kids with her. She will take it out on the kids - there is nothing you can do about that but you truly are not helping by doing everything for her unless, as I said before, you want to do this for the rest of your life. As for the social services grant, it will catch up to her but the consequences are not that severe. they will cut the daycare benefits if she's not working or in school and they may cut her from the grant, but she'll still get money for the kids so that's not going to be much of a deterent for her. You have to set the rules and then you have to stick with them - just like what she needs to do with her children!

Well, you have given me glimpse into the future if I had not put my foot down. Most of my behavior was driven by the fear of her leaving and not being capable of takiing care of my grandbaby. Mine daughter is 22 and is trying the same on us. We recently took her babysitting days away and no longer babysit on the weeknights. We will babysit on the weekends one night only. We have set up lots of rules and she follows them now. She is assigned rooms in the house and a lot of them. I realized my role in this behavior was enabling her to continue to get away with this. I just stopped.

Sounds like she is still in the habit of being the baby of the family. I'm not blaming you, but if she grew up always having others (parents, older siblings) available to do things for her, she wouldn't have learned how to do things for herself. Your older kids probably helped care for her in lots of little ways. Did she ever have to help anyone? I'm guessing she was usually on the receiving end. Having twin babies suddenly dependent upon her must seem pretty overwhelming compared to her previous life of being the cute center of attention. Sounds like she gave up immediately. No wonder you rushed in to help her, and now it has snowballed into this other thing. She probably thinks she's doing a lot. And to her, maybe it IS a lot compared with what was expected of her previously. The parenting class is a must. Counseling is a great suggestion. You obviously don't have much extra time to go to counseling, but she certainly does.

I realize after reading your post that I am babying my own kids (13 and 15) with all the little things I do for them and I need to stop it or find myself in a similar situation some day. We think we are showing them love when we do all of those things. I love to do things for them, but I am really doing that for myself, aren't I? Thanks for posting this and making me think. I hope this situation improves for you and your family very soon. Amazing how many grandparents are raising their grandkids these days. There are probably some support groups for you if you can get a free moment.

P., I'm not in your shoes, so I can only tell you what I think. From my perspective I see that you have three (3) ways to handle this.

1) Leave it alone - things remain the same. You get to see your grandkids and know that everyone is being taken care of, but your daughter never has to grow up and take responsibility thus you teach her kids that they won't have to.

2) You kick them all out, of course setting her up with an apartment (first, last, deposit), then don't rescue her when she doesn't figure out a way to pay the rent.

3) Go to court and gain custody of the children. She does not appear to be prepared to have children, nor is she acting as a fit parent.

By the way, either I missed it or you didn't mention it. Where's the dad and who's paying for the daily daycare. Maybe the dad should be raising his children. And if you and your husband are paying for childcare--stop!

Good luck, but remember if you don't do anything about it, neither will she.

J.

These kids need you to take legal responsibility for their lives, since you're already doing it!

Go for custody. Kiss your daughter's butt for a little bit to get her to sign over her parental rights - I like the idea of painting it as a "you really don't need the stress of two little kids, why don't you just go out and enjoy life with your bf?" to make her think you're doing her a favour to free her from the responsibility. Then as soon as she signs the paperwork, tell her she's got 30 days to move out. Or just pack her stuff and change the locks.

It'll be amazingly difficult, but you're right that nothing will change if you don't make waves, and you've got to do what's best for the kids. They will be sad and miss their Mommy, but they have you to turn to and you'll give them all the love and support they need.

Bless you and good luck!

H

I have been a teacher for many years and have seen what these kind of situations do for the children. Low self esteem, low achievement, emotional & social problems... This is not helping your grandchildren. One of you has to take the very difficult high road and do what is tough. Get wise counsel. Tough love. Stop this before it is too late. The longer it continues, the more difficult it will be to change. Tough love for your grandchildren. Get emotional support for you too P.! Love yourself for doing what is right. Blessings.

I am the mother of a 13 month old daughter ( my first child), so I have not been in your situation. However, my mother has and you sound a lot like her. I do not want to sound mean ,but I think you are a enabler. I know you mean well, and you obviously love your daughter and grandbabies very much, but she will never get herself together if she keeps having it so good at home with you. My older brother is 40 and still lives with my mom. No insurance, no 401k and no life plan. It really worries me that one day he will have to be on his own( my dad is deceased and my mom is in her sixties) and has never taken care of himself financially and has no retirement set up. One thing to remember is that you need to raise a self sufficient daughter because you and your husband will not always be there to help her when she falls. One of the BEST things you can do for your daughter is get her on the right path now.

I would suggest that ( if she continues to live with you) she enroll in school at a community college (there is no waiting list) it is very affordable and she could get an Associates degree there. I would also recommend that she get another part time job. I think it is ok to help her, but she also needs to help herself too. Remember that doing this is in your daughters best interest and stay strong.

A very close friend of mine went through the same thing, but the only difference was that her daughter's boyfriend lived in the house. Helping her daughter may have temporarily helped the grandchild out, but in the long run she will not bond with her child, and learn to be a Mother.

The only way things will change is if you hold her accountable and tough love her into being the mother she can be. Her instincts will kick in, in time. She will never learn theses parenting skills if you are always taking care of it for her. If it were me I would make some changes that truly challeng her to step up to the plate. She is a Mom, your job is the be the best Mom and Grandma you can be. To do that you need to step back and make her step up. If the kids health is at risk there are steps you can take to protect them. If she is not happy about it, then be prepared to let her go.

My friend let her daughter go, and slowly they have gotten back in touch. It just takes time. I wish you all the luck.

T.

First I am sorry you are in this spot.

1) I hope she is paying rent (otherwise all her cash is going to partying/playing)

2) If she says out all night she will be cranky

3) cosmetology school is not that hard to get into ... if it has been more than a year and she is not in she is Lying

Here is what I would do (sorry I am cranky ... My LO kept me up late with a cold ... so I hope this doesn't sound too harsh)

Get rid of all cable/TV ... if you need it keep one LOCKED in your room. IF you only have a video player NOT DVD ... keep that out for the kids ... You can ween them off it later.

Disconnect all internet ... again .. if you need it keep one LOCKED in your room.

First have a meeting with her and discuss the changes and provide expectations. Sounds like she doesn't have any of her own and will not get them.

Tell her you expect her to be applying for x (say 5 or so) jobs per day. You want to see copies of the application. Get a kinkos copy card if she doesn't have $$.

Tell her finding a job is work and if she is not in school and not in work ... She WILL be looking for a job/applying for school.

If your up for it tell her if she doesn't want to she can
1) Move out
2) You can adopt the kids and she can Move out

I JUST CANT BELIEVE SHE DOESN'T WORK OR GO TO SCHOOL AND PUTS THE KIDS IN CARE!!!!!YUCK!

... I just say that you have responded and dont have and time to edit but the kids will be suffering more later ... you cant make her want anything you can only provide rules ... and she knows that you want the kids ... let her take them and apply for custody ... talk to a lawyer before she moves out so you know your options ... if she move out with them then you will see ... she MIGHT step up!

Your situation sounds so much like mine, with a couple big changes, my daughter, Amy, and her 2 1/2 yr old, Jordan live down the street with my mom who is 86 but has the room so they both have their own bedrooms, Amys room is usually filthy and Jordans clean because i Help her with it, my mom watches Jordan after Amy goes to work, she works usually 2 to 10 pm and I get Jordan when I get home from work and then take her back to my moms for her to go to sleep. At least your daughter gets day care, my daughter can't even though it would really help even for just a couple days or a few hours a day to give my mom a break. Amy also is taking 4 classes at college. Can't kick them out but I think we are giving them too much of a break. Won't be responsible if we don't make them, but hard to come up with a solution, and Amy treats Jordan like that a little bit too when not getting her way or frustrated, but staying with the boyfriend at night while you watch the kids, every night is not right, not working all day or going to school and not being there for those kids during the day is wrong too. You need to make her do more by you not doing it, need to tell her things are changing and this is it and if she doesn't like it go live with the boyfriend taking her kids and know how hard that would be but letting her get away with so much isn't helping either. And this isn't the best advice to give but if I knew a solution would use it on my daughter. And don't understand why working mothers don't get child care but non working do, would love to know how you guys worked that out.

It sounds to me like she is using you and needs to have some tough love. It sounds like you are raising her children and she is on a free ride. Unfortunately you are enabling this to happen by not putting your foot down. She has to be responsible for her own children not you. You must have a talk with her and set her straight even though she will be very angry she will always love you. Tough love, tough love I tell you!

P.,
My oldest is 20 and i also have two other teenagers. Mind you they don't have any kids yet. Last month I got so sick of them not doing their chores on their charts that I grounded all of them from anything for 30 days, and told them that if they did not do their during that time the consequence would be more time to added to the grounding. I have the feeling that if you continue to do everything for her and the kids nothing is going to change. I would give her a list of things to do, and your expectations. Give her consequences also. Tell her you know she was not raised this way, so what it going on? By the way, is the dad not involved with the twins? It would be really sad to hear that your daughters lack of incentive takes an effect on your marriage.
W. M

Hi P.-
My grandmother (you are going to love this) took one of my aunts out (when they were 23) one day and dropped her off at the local nursing school and said "you are going to do something with your life besides sit around my house." She did not have kids, but my grandmother saw the signs and was not about to have her doing everything but moving forward as an adult.
It seems like a harsh thing to do, but my aunt has been grateful ever since- well, it took a few years, but she has been a nurse now for 30 plus years and has a very stable life and income. Your daughter has made some very adult decisions in her life and it's time she grows up. 25 is not young enough to be out every night, and not too old to start life up.
Hope this helps- thanks for being an awesome grandma. Those babies need you!
-E.

No offense, but this IS the way she was raised. "Most nights, she has some compelling activity that requires her to "leave early". She always asks if it's okay with me; my position is that if she wants to be someplace else, it's best that she's someplace else. The few times I've objected to her leaving early, she spent the rest of the evening snapping at the kids and being angry." You LET her get away with being a child. Quit treating her like it's okay that she's not raising her kids. You are going to have to step back and tell her she doesn't have the right to ignore her kids anymore. They're hers to raise. She'll make mistakes, just like everyone else. But they are her mistakes to make--not yours. Those kids will know that grandma loves them, but they will never know that MOM loves them if you don't give your daughter a chance.

You can't make her tow the line. And the way she is going, she's going to come home pregnant again and hand more grand children to you for you to raise. She might still do this even if you kick her out and get custody of the twins. You need the child support from the father (are you sure who it is?). She may never grow up no matter what you do. How many grand children can you raise? Are you up to it? Can you do it on a retirement income? It might be better for them to go to foster care.

Hi P.,

You sound like a wonderful person. I don't think pushing your daughter away is the right move. I think you should love her with all your heart and have an adult conversation with her. Tell her, in a mature adult-to-adult conversation (not a mother to daughter threatening and condescending approach) that you want to help her see a brighter future for herself. Tell her that, although you enjoy living with her and the children, she will need to begin taking nursing classes or some other career that actually can support two children as a single mother. Help guide her through the process of applying for the job (yes, she should be doing this herself, but she may be depressed and scared). Sit down with her and discuss the steps needed to apply (think project management). Just like a goal, put timelines on each task to be done. Tell her that you expect her to stay home with the children 5 evenings per week (they are her responsibility as a mother and the boyfriend will need to be a low priority). Explain that she is still very young, and if she is able to secure a good job, she'll be more marketable to a man who has something to offer. Explain that if she has a 3rd child, the likelyhood of a man wanting to marry her will plummet. Tell her that you will support her if she can accomplish the set tasks and show that she is truly trying to make a career for herself. Forget about the messy bedroom (that's so unimportant). On this timeline, show her that within one year, she will need to afford to rent an apartment of her own. You can still offer to take care of the grandkids while she works, if that's what you want. Otherwise, outline how much money she will need to make to pay for daycare, rent, food etc. Ask her where she sees herself 10 years from now. A sugar daddy isn't going to step in a save the day, so she needs a real plan of action.

If you really want to help her, you need to show tough love. Give her some discipline if she is going to live under your roof and be supported by you. She needs to understand that the kids are her responsibility and that she needs to grow up and start putting them first. She doesn't deserve a social life if she can't earn it.
You work full time, already raised your own kids and now are in a position where you are still supporting your spoiled and unappreciative daughter that is not living in reality; in addition to her two babies. Not the you don't want to, but you are doing a major disservice to your daughter by not expecting more from her. Unless you want to take custody if the twins, which may be best, your daughter should at the very least, be picking them up by 2 or 3, or making dinner and deffinitely doing all of the laundry as well as keeping her room acceptable to you. You are not her maid. You are being takem advantage of, and taken for granted.
I see my mom every couple months and appreciate her help so much. Having children is a choice. It is a ton of work and you only get one chance to do it well. It is very hard, but also rewarding and amazing. She is missing out on all of it by not being a parent.

Hi P.,
I'm a family therapist specializing in teens, and I see a lot of this these days (I guess people figure, 'Well, my 20 something is ACTING like a teen-- that's close enough!' To cut to the chase, your daughter sounds mighty immature and I don't see her changing anytime soon, unless she force her hand. Make her do her own laundry, do her share of the cooking/cleaning, not use your home as a hotel-- if she wants to stay at home and act like a child, she should have rules similar to one-- strict rules. If she wines, so be it. If she's rude to you, simply say, 'I don't appreciate it when you speak to me that way' and then leave the room. If you make it uncomfortable enough, she'll finally be motivated to change. Also, if you're feeling really gusty, you might consider giving her an 'exit date', but if you say, 'I want you to move out by X' you have to know you can stand by that.
Good luck!

P., forgive me for being blunt, but you and your husband have enabled your daughter and allowed this unacceptable behavior for too long. And now, there are two little boys who will suffer. You need to stop this childish behavior and tell your daughter to go up. It is time for her to begin to accept responsibility and accountability for herself. In my opinion, if she is going to live with you, she needs to get a job, begin contributing to rent and food, and be a mother to her children which includes feeding, bathing, dressing, etc. If she can't do that, then kick her out and file for guardianship of the twins. I also think the twins father should being paying child support.

You and your husband should decide if you are going to raise the twins or if you want to be "just" grandparents. It is time for your daughter to get her act together and she won't as long as you allow her to behave like a child.

Hi P.,
You've gotten some good advice. Please sit her down and be CLEAR on rules and make sure she has consiquences. (Sounds like she has never had consiquences before.) It will be extremely diffucult for you and your husband, for the sake of the kids it is worth it! They are learning what is acceptable, do you want to be raising your great grandchildren? I would look into gaining custody now, that way if your daughter doesn't take things seriously you are able to follow through quickly.
I wittnessed my mother go through something similar with my brother growning up...she finally gave some "tough love" and today my brother is sucessful with a wife and son.
Good luck! You will be in my prayers.

S.

You sound like a great mother for the twins. Is there any way you could have her sign over parental rights to you, just so that you can ensure that they are always taken care of? For instance, if you bought her a snazy new car, would she do it? If you gave her $10,000 cash would she do it? If the answer is yes, then I would do it!

Thank you for hanging in there for those kids - you will be richly rewarded - you're a good person!

Why is your daughter getting welfare and subsidized childcare, especially when she's not working? Your daughter is 25...that's not so young. Many people have children AND they actually care for them.

I'm sorry but this kind of situation infuriates me. Your daughter needs to take care of her kids or give them up for adoption - she clearly has no interest in them. You need to stop letting your daughter be a flake. Cancel her entitlements from the state - she doesn't deserve them. If she needs child support sue the father. Tell her that she can't spend the night with her boyfriend...she has to care for her kids. I'd ask her outright if she wishes to retain custody of her kids - if no, then consider adopting them yourself. At a minimum, she must stop leaving every night. You need to have a frank talk with her. If she can't shape up and take responsibility inform her that you will cancel welfare, etc. and she'll actually have to be around her kids for the entire day. Who knows, she might actually enjoy being a mom if she just tried it.

Even though you feel you are "helping" her and the kids - the bottom line is that her kids have a mother who has nothing to do with them. That is what's really sad.

I agree w/the other responses: ground rules IMMEDIATELY! You & your husband need to sit down & talk to her as a united front. She pays rent, she pays her share of food & utilites. Stop feeding her & stop doing her laundry. She pays you for the time you babysit her kids or she finds someone else to watch them. Give her 4 months to get a job & get an apartment. Be prepared for temper tantrums & threats that she won't let you see the boys but I'd say, chances are, once she realizes she can't find a free babysitter, she'll come back to you for that. Based on your description of her, I'd be very worried about her ability to parent & be responsible in any way shape or form so as soon as you can, start the proceedings so you & your husband can get permanent custody & be the sole caregivers of those grandsons. They are the ones who will suffer greatly for her immaturity. Her poor choices will cause life long negative consequences for those innocent little boys. Best of luck!

Hello! Wow hun I totally feel for you! I just want to start off by saying you are a great person and she should be SO appreciative that she has you to help AT ALL! I am 21 and a single mom to my 2 year old son and I have done it on my own since day one. I don't have family to help me and I completely support myself and my son financially. Its VERY hard but I am working hard at doing the best I can for the 2 of us! Well, with that said, I think you need to start by setting some boundaries. It can get very easy to start taking advantage of the neverending help you give her. You need to sit down and talk with her and let her realize that SHE is their mom and you are more than happy to help when you can, but key word "help", not completely step in as their mother. If I were you, I would tell her you are not going to watch them every night, that you will watch them one evening a week if she wants to go be social and get out ( cuz we all know that's important). Or if she needs extra childcare while looking for a job, then you will help with that, but you are not the babysitter while she goes and lives her own life.it sounds like your daughter needs constant structure or will easily fall into this cycle you talk about. I only speak from my point of view as a young mother, and I understand how easy it is to totally take advantage of any help we might get, so you need to set your boundaries. Yes, she might resist at first but it will work better for the long run. You should start by making your own plans, and not always being so available to help her. Let her know you are not going to be home for the evening and that she needs to stay home with the kids.

Right now, your daughter doesn't motivate herself because she really has no reason to, she is very cozy living with you, and depending on you to support her and her sons.She needs a push in the right direction and needs to feel the reality of being a mom! Otherwise, this cycle is just going to continue. I also think that you should start asking for rent, even if its only $100 a month, and if you don't feel you need to keep the money, accept it and put it in a bank account and save it for her without her knowing, so that when she does show some signs of moving forward, you will have that to give her.also, if you don't feel comfortable asking her for groceries, you could tell her she needs to at least cook dinner 2 nights a week.and give her a chore list, you are all living together and should split the responsibility equally. Like I said, she should be thankful you are there to help even the slightest bit.

She needs to start standing on her own two feet and it just takes baby steps from you to gently push her in that direction. After you start putting up these boundaries and staying consistent, you should see some changes. If you need anything, feel free to message me :) I wish you and your family the best of luck and I hope I was able to help a little :)

Dear P.,
I'm so sorry you are going through this, but it is a mess of your own making. I know you love your daughter and her kids with all your heart, and that is part of the problem. Your daughter sounds terribly immature and maybe overwhelmed. You are seeing things from the perspective of how you dealt with things, but she has never had to do that.
Young couples, as parents, rarely get time out to have a break let alone be gone all the time.
You have given her every reason not to worry about her children because she knows you will do it for her. Have you had the "talk" with her? For one thing, you already know she is sleeping with her boyfriend. She needs to know, point blank, that she better not get pregnant again since she doesn't seem to have time to take care of the babies she has. If it was a serious relationship, she wouldn't be leaving her kids, her boyfriend would be planning on marrying her and having them be a family.
He doesn't sound like the greatest guy, but for some reason your daughter is putting him ahead of everything. That's her choice, but she needs to make it. It's him or her kids. Not to assume, but I'm guessing it's never been put to her in that way.
She's living in your house, she's getting government help and she's not taking advantage of it in the way that she should. There are women her age who would do anything to better themselves with the help they've been given. It sounds like your daughter isn't seeing it that way. She needs to understand that it would take one phone call to a social worker and she could be completely cut off benefits. And she needs to understand that taking the kids is always an option, but she can also live in the fish bowl of everyone checking on her to see if the kids are being cared for properly.
They don't just hand out money for people who aren't trying to take care of their kids or better themselves.
If you know she's not doing what she should be doing this is the time to make it clear that she will be cut off of public funds and SHE will be on her own.
She'll either really step up or she will let you have her kids. If she's not meant to be a mother, then she just needs to admit it. I know it sounds harsh, but I would be pretty blunt with her. For once, make her understand the gravity of her choices and decisions. And make her make up her mind. Don't mess around anymore. Don't worry she will take the kids. My guess is she will bring them right back when Lover-Boy doesn't want to deal with it. I don't think she would get very far with those kids. Even if she did, it wouldn't last long.
She's off track and you need to help her get back on.
It all starts with her own choices.
Don't back down. She will be counting on that.

Best wishes!

hi P.

wow, this is a sucky situation...my guess is, she does what she does becuz she's been allowed the space to do so. explain to her she is their mother, and if she is not going to take on that responsbility, that until she's ready to do so, you and your husband will seek temporary custody, and that she's gotta leave. period.

hopefully she'll take initiative, but either way, the children deserve a safe secure consistent homelife.

best of luck,
aline

i feel very bad for you, and have not been in your position. but, with that said, i think you need to sit down with your husband, and decide what the rules are that you can live with. you and your husband need to be on the same page. then, in a non-aggressive atmosphere, you need to have a serious talk with your daughter. you both need to sit down and and tell her what you expect while she lives with you and what the time line is. i know finding a job right now is difficult. so, while she is not working, she is a full time mom, which is the toughest job ever! she needs to be making dinner, eating with her kids, and doing the night time routine. if once in a while you allow her to spend the night with her boyfriend, that would be ok i guess, but really her kids should be her first responsibility. our jobs as moms is 1. to make our children have wonderful childhood experiences and 2. teach our children to become responsible and loving adults. i don't want this to sound hurtful, but your daughter seems to be acting selfish and taking advantage of you and your husband. 25 is not too young to grow up, especially since there are children involved. another thought, what is she doing with her boyfriend that makes her want to leave her kids? drinking? drugs? just a thought, most likely not happening but it seems odd her instincts are not to be with her kids. good luck, i'm thinking good thoughts for you.

It's time to set some house rules. You, your husband and her need to sit down and let her know what the rules are. If she doesn't like it, she can leave. The rules MUST be reinforced.

My late sis and my BiL raised their oldest granddaughter, their daughter who is now 40 still lives in the house with her 9 year old daughter... she does nothing. She is normally spaced out on drugs and cannot get a job nor does she want to. This is not what you want to happen to you. This gal has always been with loser guys too.

You also need to make it clear to her that she is the mother of these kids, not you... she needs to take care of them. Maybe allow her to spend one or two nights a week with her boyfriend, but the rest of the time she has to accept the responsibility of the kids. She also needs to go find a job, even if it's part-time and start contributing to the household... either financially, or be responsible for cooking dinner several nights a week. Letting her do as she pleases will only promote what my late sis and BiL has dealt with forever. Tough love!

There are lots of "shoulds" here, but there are 2 little kids involved who are completely innocent and need care first. How is it that your 2 other kids are responsible, and this daughter missed the boat? Who knows if tough love will "fix" her. You can't be blamed either way, and are sensible enough to understand those twins need a good home. Good for you.

My niece is taking advantage of her mother and grandmother, and we are all anxious, just like you. But we can't make her go to college or grow up, or demand that she take care of her kids better. Frankly she is just unable. Our demands fall on deaf ears. We are powerless to make her change, as we stand by and watch.

Your daughter has to sort herself out, by will only do so when she is able. She needs support, sure, and maybe that needs to be external. It may be that being back at home sends her mentally back to when she was 15 years old, and may find it hard to "grow up" under your roof when essentially life is the same now as it was then. But really her circumstances have changed, but the rules haven't.

Yes, you can set the ground-rules, but I am guessing you do not want to be too 'strict' as you fear losing her and the twins. The first rule I would be setting is that she has to pick up the kids from daycare no later than 4pm. She needs more contact with them. I would suggest you plan the day before with her what she can prepare for dinner. Baby steps with her. Frankly the best things those twins have (besides you and grandpa) is the daycare. She cannot be trusted to do better for those kids than the teachers can. It is essential that they stay where they are because their needs are being met much more than if they stayed home with a lazy mom who could not care to meet their needs.

She will want to be moving in with her boyfriend soon I can guess, I would do a credit and criminal background check on him - like estate agents would do for a renter.

You will have to decide what to do with the twins then. Are you prepared to raise them? because that is going to be the next really hard question for you and your husband. Maybe its time to see a social worker, and a family attorney to figure out some options.

Best of luck, and take credit for being there for her and her kids when they needed you the most.

Ah, P., my son is 27 and nothing is EVER his fault. I'm not sure what you can do here that doesn't impact the grandchildren negatively. Some people just have this personality, although I think it may be exacerbated by depression. You can try to get her to family counseling, but my son wouldn't go. I can't get him to ask for medication either. I do know that he doesn't know how to apply for jobs, and when I have done so for him, he has been very enthusiastic, but unfortunately, he has only one part-time seasonal job on a regular basis. I am very reluctant to throw him out (yes, I'm talking to you, tough lovers) because I don't want him to end up being a burden on the community. Try to get her to accept some limits if you can, see if you can all go to counseling, and if medication is a possibility. Maybe something will work for you...
E.

P.S. And I really wouldn't rely on a TV show (Dr. Phil) as a good source of advice on your individual problem.

You probably know the basics but need to put them into enforcement. Adult children living with their parents need to pay rent. You need to instill responsibility in your daughter. Before she moved in with you you should have made the ground rules....but I guess you should make them now. Have you thought about talking with a therapist and figure out why you are allowing her to be a poor role model to her children? Obviously you know she should be making the whole family dinner every night and cleaning the house as payment for staying in your house. You should probably work out one night a week where she can have a sleep over with her boyfriend and the grandparents babysit....more overnights than most married couples ever get and she should be estatic! If she doesn't like that then she should get a job, apartment, and have her own life. If she is going to live under your roof than she lives under your rules. But she should always be there for her kids. The "charlie tunas" will come and go but her children will always be there and remember her mother not being there,and any guy worth to be with wouldn't be with a mother who isn't parenting her own children. Good luck and seek some professional help for you and your daughter.

Unfortunately, I think it's easy for people to say "tough love" etc but there are 2 helpless children involved. If it was just your daughter, I would agree you should be really tough. I'd have no sympathy for her. Problem here is what do you really threaten her with? If it was just her, you could follow through on kicking her out. But can you really do that knowing her kids will be in a lousy situation then? So if you can handle it, perhaps make some rules, I'd start out on the small side, and say if she doesn't abide, you're kicking her (alone) out. As some people said, start the proceedings to take custody. A few different things could happen - you could end up having to kick her out and she doesn't miss her kids and is happy being single and "free". Then you would have even more responsibility than you do now. Can you handle that? Better outcome of course is she does miss the kids and realize she needs to improve. Before you do anything, maybe write down all you do for the kids versus what she does. Ask her if that's fair? To be honest, I could see being pretty bummed to be a single mom of 2 young kids at age 25. That's a tough road. Has anyone ever talked to her about how she feels? Maybe addressing the whole situation would help. Maybe finding some other young single moms for her to get to know would help. You may be more naturally maternal - you went out and found out you had nothing in common with your single friends anymore. She just may not be made like that. Maybe acknowledge that and see if there are some compromises. Perhaps a small step would be insisting she attend a parenting class... They seem to really help people who are actually abusive. Maybe it would open her eyes a bit.

Sorry, starting to just think out loud. Definitely a tough situation and you deserve a lot of credit for taking on the wellfare of the twins. They are so lucky to have you.

This may have already been suggested- you have a lot of responses here. I would start custody proceedings for your grand kids. Until (if?) your daughter grows up they are much better off with you and the safe way to make sure this happens is to make it legal. Your daughter is a detrimental role model for them as a woman and as a mother- thank God they have you and your husband.

I would tell her she needs to move out- the kids stay as that is in their best interest but she needs to move out and decide what's more important- her, her boyfriend or her kids. She is acting like a spoiled child and it may or may not be in her personality to change her behavior. And if not, as long as you and your husband are willing, the kids are better off with you short and long term.

So maybe you have to wrap this up in a pretty bow that you are giving her the opportunity to live her own life without the responsibility of the kids. I'm not sure how to dress it up, but her being in the house is stressful for all of you and the kids likely feel it. You don't want her using them to get what she wants (nice, comfy life with mom and dad with minimal responsibility for anything including her own kids).

good luck - this is so sad but doing what's right for the kids is most important.

P., I don't know what to say. Other then bless you for doing all you are for your daughter and grandchildren. WOW!!! You need to get tough with her and lay down some ground rules or she has to live else where. I use that line because that is what this mother said on dr Phil last night to her daughter who is also living at home with her 2 litle boys. Check out Dr Phil. com and see the show. Oh my god. That show sounds so much like what your going through and Dr Phil had some great advice for the daughter and mother. If this was my mother she would have kicked me out by now and taken the kids and told me to get my act together or I would lose my children.
Where is the twins father in all of this? My mother lives a mile from me and takes the kids from time to time just so I can get a break. However, Ive been married for 5 yrs and have 2 little boys. Im tired all the time and could never just check out, as much as I would love to at times. YOur daughter is taking advantage of you and you need to put your foot down and end the madness now. She is living in your house and has to respect it. She isn't doing anything because she doen't have to. You just have to get tough.

Take care and good luck
SAHM, 40yrs old with 2 funny wild little boys. 3yrs old and 16 months.

P.,

I am so sorry for the position you are in! My suggestion is to sit her down and have a heart to heart talk about your concerns and lay down some ground rules. She may be an adult,but she is living in your home and you are taking care of her children. Put it to her plainly. If she doesn't clean up her act and start acting like a parent, you are going to seek full-custody of the children. They sound so much better taken care of with you. Follow through on whatever you decide. Good luck. This is one of those tough love situations--- but you must think of your grandkids first!

P.,
I truly empathize with your situation. I know that as a grandmother you feel obligated to help with your daughter's children and fill the voids her absences leaves. However, I do not believe this it healthy for her and definetly not for you. It appears that your daughter has grown too comfortable in her position and ability to rely on you. There should be some clear expectations and guidelines enforced so that she is forced to grow up and take on the total responsibility of raising her children. I recommend that you give her an ultimatum. She needs to re-enroll in school and attend and seek employment. The school year will begin in January and this gives her time to find the classes she needs and to choose a school that meets her needs. Further, with the holiday season upon us, she should be able to find a job, even if its only seasonal. Let her know that you will support her and help with the children, if and only if she is doing her part. But leaving every night is not responsible parenting and again is not fair to you. As a grandparent you provide supplemental parenting and support. This allows you to guide your daughter in her parenting. You should not share and really should not have the bulk of parental responsibilities. I recommend that you speak to your daughter soon about your concerns and how you feel. If not, this pattern may beocme your indefinite routine where she is free to leave with her boyfriend and you have to raise her children. One question, if she spends so much time at her boyfriend's house, why can't she move there with her children? Just a thought, then should she does not need to comply with your expectations. Good luck.
- T.

I don't even know what to say here. She's not the kids' mom, you are. She's just "helping out". I know it would be tough, but you need to get her out of your house and start to be responsible for her own children. If she can't do that, kick her out and keep the kids. Does she even help out with expenses with the cash subsidy she gets? I am so angry on your behalf on how she is using you and neglecting her kids.