Health Care Debate...

I competely agree! If they don't want to abide by federal laws, then start paying taxes. I think they should anyway!

This isn't about birth control and women's rights.
This is about the government being able to tell the church what to do, and to go against something they strongly believe in. The government with their fingers in the church is the whole reason why people fled England to settle this country to begin with.

This concept isn't that hard to understand.
I know about the best birth control EVER and it's FREE. It's called SELF CONTROL. But most people in this country don't know anything about that.

They have tax exempt status because the income of the church depends on the generosity of it's members. There is no product to sell, there is no charged for service.

What people don't seem to be understanding here is that this is NOT about bc !! This is about forcing the Catholic church to provide something that goes against what they believe. It is a freedom of religion issue. It would kind of be like forcing a Kosher deli to serve pork. The Constitution is what made this country great- if we ignore it on this issue, we'll be on a slippery slope to other things being passed that are unconstitutional. Where does it say that we should be entitled to free bc anyway- or free anything for that matter? Nothing is free. This will do nothing but drive up costs for insurance companies, which will then increase the price of insurance. The government needs to not be dictating what businesses need to provide- Part of the reason the economy is in the mess it's in is because the government forced banks to provide mortgages to people that they knew couldn't afford it.

And no, I don't believe churches should have their tax-exempt status removed. They do a lot of good for the poor- and they do a better job of it than the government, which has done nothing but keep people dependent. They also waste a lot of money on bureauocracy, unlike churches.
Added: LiveBold is absolutely right!! And where is the outrage over the MASSIVE amt.s of $ that the government wastes?! Then, when they talk budget cuts, the dems start saying if we cut the budget, we'll be cutting teachers, police officers, and firefighters. NO, THAT is NOT where the WASTE is!! Grrrr. Drives me bonkers.

Added: BTW, Birth control IS available to anyone who wants it. Condoms are not expensive. If a woman wants the pill, and can't afford it, they can always go to Planned Parenthood. People are making it sound like people who oppose the gov't mandate are preventing women from getting bc. That is how it's being spun, and some people are buying into it.

I think that birth control should be available to anyone who wants it. It is a personal choice and if they believe it is a sin to use it then use it anyway they have to be accountable to God when they stand before him. It is called freedom of choice. If I believe that drinking pop with caffeine in them is a sin and do it anyway I am accountable for it to someone not here on earth. It is a choice.

I have a friend who grew up total Catholic. Wanted to be a nun. She ended up discovering sex and got married instead. Did everything right, had 2 sons about 2 years apart then when she was working in a convenience store she was robbed and raped. She got pregnant. Her hubby was working out of the country so there was no way she could have been impregnated by hubby. She was in the hospital for a few days after the attack and later found the pregnancy.

She had an abortion, she feels to this day she committed a mortal sin that will prevent her from ever going to Heaven. She is still a good person and has lived a good person kind of life. But she left her church and has never returned, knowing it won't do her any good.

This is skewed to me, but she believes it with her whole heart.

I think it is a personal choice and no other person or organization should have the right to force them to do one thing or the other. Medications should be offered through a general health care option. If they choose to use it they do with their own choice, if not...it is still their own choice.

The whole idea of being tax exempt is that it _prevents_ the government from being involved--i.e., if the Church were to pay taxes, there would be even _more_ things that the Church is paying for that they don't believe in. The reason the Catholic Church (and many, many others) don't pay taxes is due to all the work the Church does on behalf of society; not paying taxes frees up that much more money to run Catholic Relief Services and Catholic Charities (among others), which provide disaster relief, food and shelter for the homeless, adoption services, etc. With the debt burden of taxes, the Church would have to seriously curtail these works. As for "recreational sex" post-menopause, I assume you're talking about non-marital sex. The Church teaches that sex is reserved for marriage--period, regardless of whether the couple is infertile or menopausal, etc. Sex has _both_ a procreative (child-bearing) and unitive aspect. The unitive aspect is still reserved for marriage , whether or not the procreative aspect has been removed by age or other medical situation. If you're refering to _marital_ post-menopausal sex, have at it, with the Church's blessing! :-)

Gamma G, PLEASE encourage your friend to seek out help and healing from Rachel's Vineyard (http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/). It saddens me that she feels like it "wouldn't do any good" to return to the Church. There is NO sin too great for forgiveness! Not only would she not find condemnation in her return, there would be such great joy--just like the father for the prodigal son in the Bible story. Please offer these suggestions to her, even if you don't agree with the Church. It sounds like she's hurting and needs you to help her the way she needs to be helped.

LiveBold, I think you just may have made some woman reconsider their views, well probably not, but wishful thinking. Your post is amazing, tho!!!!!

More people would be hurt if it wasn't for the generosity of the congregations in Churches. Churches take care of people in need WAY more than the Government.

I am not Catholic and I don't agree with their position on birth control. However, if we allow the government to ignore the church's clearly-stated position on this then we have absolutely NO RIGHT to complain when the government starts ignoring the positions of any other religious group. This could be set a very dangerous precedent.

All not for profits get "tax exempt" status, why single out one religion?

How would taxing the profits of the Catholic church solve our debt problem, they are not for profit, there is nothing to tax.

What is basic health care? Is it straight up birth control because most health plans from Catholic institutions do cover birth control even though as a faith they consider it wrong. They do not and should not be forced to cover voluntary sterilization or abortion.

I don't see why any religious institution is tax exempt. I think it's nonsense, and it has nothing to do with this debate on birth control. Religion in this country is big business. Some of the pastors of the mega churches are certainly non being paid what you'd expect for a non-profit organization.

Well, I am not sure if I got the question right but here is what I understood.

The money that the church gets is from people that want to donate the money, that money has already being taxed by the people that donated to the church, and it wasn't a salary, it was a present (one that already paid taxes) so I don't think it should be taxed.

Now, the money that the church gets from weddings, then that could be taxed.
At the end, taxes "suppose" to help us just as the church "suppose" to use that money to help others.

Of course here is where our faith (believers or not) fall on who will really use the money to help the needed.

I understand what Beth is saying that this is about government telling churches what to do, and I do agree to an extent. But isn't it just as valid to say this is about churches refusing to pay for some medical procedures and thus denying their employees certain health options? Some women take birth control pills for specific medical conditions. Should a church be able to force them to pay out of pocket for this medication?

Both arguments are very strong, and that's why so many of us are very torn on this issue.

Never going to happen

I sure am sick of preachers driving Bentleys. I think churches who gross millions and enrich their leadership should be taxed.