Ex In-laws and Sneaky Visits.

As a veteran of a crappy divorce and crappy in-laws, I totally feel your pain! I don't know that my advice is very good, but it worked for me (and the kids affected by it are grown ups now and feel that I handled it the best way possible). Unless I was truly having a conflict that I really, really couldn't change, I always bowed to visitation with my ex-husband and his family (this is for my two oldest girls - I remarried my ex-husband, but not this one). No matter what. I did it with a smile on my face (that I didn't feel) and goodness in my attitude (that I didn't feel). At some point, the girls were old enough to decide how much time THEY wanted to spend time with dad and in-laws - one daughter bowed out fairly early in her teen years and the other one stuck it out until the bitter end. My ex and his family are quite dysfunctional and eventually my girls realized that.

In talking to my girls as adults (25 and 27 - one has a child of her own), they have a TON of respect and gratitude for what I did for them, and their dad, and their dad's family. I never bad mouthed (not saying you are - certainly doesn't sound like it), always changed my plans to meet dad's last minute plan, never got mad about it, always acted super excited to the kids when blindsided with plan changes, etc. When they were your kids' ages, they didn't even realize what I was doing but it made them happy. As teens, they started realizing what was going on. As adults, they totally know and appreciate what I did - and recognize that I did it all for them, not their dad or his family.

I hope this helps . . . good luck!

YIkes. What a mess. No wonder you got a divorce.

Don't contact them. Don't spell out stuff ahead of time to people who don't listen. Don't change your schedule for anyone unless there is a crisis such as a death.

Stick to your time, give the dad the visitation that's spelled out, and that's it. People can tell you "It's raining out" 20 million times, and you can keep arguing that "No, it's sunny" to people who don't listen. There's no reason to keep saying it. So stop spelling out the agreement. Dad has his time, you have yours. If the grandparents visit during his time with the kids, they get to see the kids. If there is any possibility that he would leave the kids with his parents, get a modification of the visitation that they cannot be alone with Grandma due to the drinking. They can visit when they want, but the kids go during Dad's week. Period.

These people are out of control. But you're not I control. You're caving in. Why? So they will like you? Because it's easier in the moment? Maybe, but then you're miserable afterwards, and the kids didn't get their week of "down time" and whatever else.

When they are "demanding" to see the kids - who are they leaning on? You? Don't take their calls or texts or emails! Just don't! Is your ex badgering you? Hang up, 2 seconds after you say "Refer to the visitation schedule." Don't keep arguing. Did you ever see those courtroom shows where an attorney keeps badgering the witness? The other attorney objects and the judge says, "Asked and answered. Move on."

It does not matter if your ex spells out the visitation agreement to his parents. It does not matter if they scheme and do back room deals. That's not your concern. Your dealings are with him only, and there's no need to discuss visitation when it's spelled out. He can't keep arguing it with you unless you let him. No one can catch you off guard if there's no reason for you to think about anything they propose. You tell him that the agreement will be adhered to exactly, no manipulation, no discussion or you will have your attorney involved.

People can't take advantage of you without your permission.

This is how I see it. Your ex is really under no obligation to tell you when his parents come to town. That really is none of your concern. You had every opportunity to tell them that the kids were not available for the daily visits, but you did not do that. That's no one's fault but your own. You can't stop them from asking - they can ask for anything they want. It's up to you to put boundaries in place and to stick to them.

You can't dictate what they do at his apartment, no matter what the divorce decree says. What you can (and must) do is stop giving in, stop accomodating, stop changing your schedule. You are making all of these accommodations and then getting angry at your ex and your in-laws. So, stop. Who cares when they arrive, who cares how much they "demand" to see the kids. They see the kids during the time you approved of and that's it.

You can't control when they come to see HIM.
But you do NOT have to change YOUR plans to accomodate them.
If you had dates already arranged, and they decided to come eraly, then they can still damn well wait to see the kids until the dates you agreed on.

It's one thing to accommodate when you have no plans.
It's something else when you agreed to something and they changed plans.
If you had travel plans to see your folks - then your answer should have been:
"Sorry but we have plans and we can't change them. We'll have to work out something else some other time.".
It's up to your ex to deal with his parents.
Whether they like it or not - you're divorced and you don't have to deal with them any more beyond a very few visits with the kids.
Especially as the kids get older and are involved in more school activities and extra curricular activities - the kids are going to be too busy for out of the blue unscheduled extended visits.
Nip it now.
That this has been going on for 4 years already is way too long and you need to get some firmer boundaries in place.

Ok, forgive me but these questions frustrate me. You have "sole custody" of the kids and "final say" when you and your ex can't agree on something. But what isn't clear is if there is a legal Parenting Plan in place. That is the document that spells out when you and your ex gets the kids. There is a difference between custody and visitation. IF you have a parenting plan filed through the court and he has say, every other weekend, then even though YOU have sole custody, you cannot dictate what happens during HIS time or WHO the kids see or WHERE they go. So if he is allowed 2 weeks with them then even if you have "final say", it doesn't pertain to his time. I hope this makes sense. So technically, without knowing that, it's hard to answer.

If you have custody and "allow" him to see the kids when he's in town, then that is a little easier to determine. YOU can say when the kids can see him or not. If you can't agree then you pull the "final say" card and tell him no. LEGALLY you are 'right'.

BUT...is that the 'right' decision for your kids whom I assume like to see their grandparents? Sometimes it's better to just let some things go and it's not worth the fight or stress we put into it. You appear to have the kids full time. It's ok that you don't see them for almost 2 weeks. It's good for them to go out and have fun with the "other" side of the family.

So my answer, assuming you do NOT have a parenting plan in place and because your ex has a crazy schedule that you just 'work out' between you, then I would send your ex an email. I would say something like, "you know this has been an ongoing issue of your parents just showing up and seeing the kids whenever they like. Now that we are divorced and I have "final say" on the schedule, I would like more notice on what EXACTLY your plans are so we can plan accordingly. As you know, I thought they were coming for a week and when they showed up earlier it put me on the spot and I had to then change my plans to accommodate them. I will NOT do this again. Our kids need to have a consistent schedule and it's easier for them when they know what's going on, not to mention you and I having our own plans and being able to stick to them. I will continue to work with you but it needs to stay what we agreed on and not change without my knowledge or prior approval. I'm sure you can understand this."

When you put this in an EMAIL, it's no longer he said/she said. You have notified him in writing that this is the way its going to be. Then if he fights you on it, you have a document you can show the judge that you were willing to work with him as long as it didn't change at the last minute like it usually does.

As inconvenient and rude as it is, the fact remains the kids want to see their dad and grandparents and you should allow that "within reason". Good luck.

I'd wait until you anger has passed and remind the Ex that he almost didn't get to have his kids on their planned vacation because it conflicted with yours and that next time if he is a bad planner and communicator you will not be so flexible.
I think its important that you remind him that you have proven to be flexible and accommodating, but that there are lots of moving parts and he needs to run the dates by you well in advance so it does not happened again.
I don't think it would hurt either to call up the in-law and say, "you know your trip interfered with my planned vacation, but I moved things around so it could all work. I can't promise to be so flexible in the future, please let me know your dates well in advance so we don't encounter another conflict, I'd hate for you to drive all the way out here and not be able to see your grandkids." The key is not to come down on them or they will only get defensive. Make it only about the future and good planning. Don't dwell on their past mistake, or they won't hear what you have to say.

Going forward, whatever agreements you have, put it in writing. Not for the normal weekly or bi-weekly but the extended/special situation visits for sure.

Your ex was right that if his parents were coming to visit him before the portion of their visit that involved your children it wasn't any of your concern. Until they wanted to see your kids. I would have let them see them when they arrived (or early in that visit) and then said "they'll see you on XXX at XX:XX....I'm sure you'll have a blast that week". When they bulked I would have said "sorry but that was not the plans I agreed to AND I have plans of my own". Communication is key!

**Added** After ready a few other responses I wanted to say that what I took from your post when you stated it was not what you agreed to and referred to time away from your kids was that it was YOUR quiet time/vacation time with them and because the ex-inlaws showed up earlier than was scheduled, they wanted your kids during that time without prior knowledge/agreement. Frustrating for sure especially since you tried to be nice and accommodating )but it's not their fault you said yes). I think a few people took it as you being selfish but I took it as regret that you said yes...trying to do the right thing.

The only way this situation will change in the future is if you stop succumbing to your ex's "demands." He demands, you give in, whyever would he do anything differently?

You have a court-enforced legal document saying that you have to consent to all visitation, meaning you alone have the power to say yes or no. Very simple solution I think. Next time he demands a surprise or inconvenient visit, say no! Remind him that you need proper notice and stick to your guns. Of course, if it works for you and the kids, then let them go, but if not, the ball is in your court!

You can't change his behavior, but you can change yours!

What do your children want to do?

Please listen to them.
If you have absolute plans, then do not change them, but if your plans are not set in stone and the kids want to see their Grandparents, then do not turn this into a tug of war.

It sounds like the difference is that his parents are able and willing to travel and your parents do not have this luxury. That is something you need to take a look at. Is it because they physically cannot travel? Is it that they work and can not get a lot of time off? Is it a money thing, that they cannot afford to come for a visit? Or are they just not as enthusiastic as you would like?

Be honest, if your parents are not coming down as often, then of course they are not going to see the kids, but that does not mean that his (obnoxious) family, who is making the effort and really wants to spend time with their grandchildren, should not be allowed.

What needs to change is, the communication. I cannot tolerate, drop ins and big 'ol messed up plans. I am like you. I plan and I follow those plans.

Either have a sit down with the inlaws and explain your frustrations and the divorce visitation agreement, or you will constantly be putting up with this.

You are the gate keeper. Step up and speak up, they cannot read your mind. And your ex sounds like a chump. He is not going to ever change.

I am sending you strength.

I agree with both Missy and Sherry.

I feel for you - it sounds all quite stressful. And where the MIL is an alcoholic and the family sounds quite dysfunctional, I get where you want to limit the time your kids have with the grandparents. That I understand.-

So ... do you let your kids have an extra week with the grandparents with ex present - Is that in your kids' best interests? If so, then you suck it up and allow them extra time to visit with them.

So long as it does not put you out terribly.

If it does, or it's not in your kids' best interests to have 2 weeks with grandparents, then you say "No - sorry, Can't do it". And leave it at that.

It's not fair to say "ok" begrudgingly and then complain. You have the power (and the right) to say no if you want to.

They do sound quite dysfunctional so I get where you are coming from. I would not want to have to deal with them either. But just decide what you are ok with, and stick to it.

I would not contact them separately. I would just say you'll get back to them next time this happens (if it does again), and think about what you want. Then just stick to your decision. Don't answer on the spot.

Good luck :)

Has it really been 4 years already?

I think you are mostly emotionally reacting because of history, which I know is hard to let go of. As long as they are not staying with you, I don't think you want the emotional stress of trying to control them in any way.

Assume they will probably change plans as they always did, assume your ex will side with them as he always did. You will just be in for a bitter fight if you try to dictate any aspect of their visits.

I think you should just realize that you are with your kids almost all the time, and use the time they are visiting to do something fun for yourself, even if they change plans. I would have welcomed someone to take my kids for a week or two when they were little - I never got a break. Just don't go out of your way to change your personal plans if they arrive unexpectedly.

You weren't successful regulating their visits when you and ex were together; you are going to be even less so now. Relax and enjoy the break. The kids will be fine.

I think my answer might not be what you want to hear. I think that if your husband is supervising the visits and you have no real conflict then you suck it up and let the inlaws see the kids. Now if you had plans out of town you just say sorry no that doesn't work. But not letting them see them for an extra week just because you don't like them thats really just kind of crappy. Sorry. I know inlaws can be a major pain in the butt. But these are the kids grandparents and apparently they really love your kids. Why would you want to take that away from your kids just to be pissy?

I can't believe it's been 4 years either, A.! Wow--time flies.

I would probably TRY to let you ex handle his parents.
I would make sure I have him a copy of that part of the agreement that they could HAVE!
(AND I would probably make sure I was good & gone the weeks before and after their next visit.)
Good luck, Hon!

Hey sweetie, I have no advice but I've always loved yours!!. I would've done exactly what you did. Why not? Kids probably wanted to go, if not that's a different story. But you're an awesome mom, you didn't cave, you knew and know the importance of their relationship with their other family (that's nucking futs!) and that's probably the primary feeling you went with. Anyway, you can tell by so many of these answers that you're very loved and respected here. When you said four years I thought the same as other people! That it doesn't seem that long. Lol but you clarified.
I simply posted to give you some love and support. Don't be hard on yourself. You acted maturely and had your kids in mind. You did good. Good luck mama, it'll all work out. :)

You did the right thing. It's not fair and its not easy, but it was the right thing. Unfortunately, you putting your foot down could hurt your relationship with your kids. This isn't about you and its not about your ex, its about them.

I really do understand this. I'm the one who makes the accommodations with my kids to see their dad when something unexpected happens. Mine are now old enough that they choose when to see him (my daughter is in her last year of the parenting plan) and his family. If I prevented it, then I'd be the bad guy. One day they may understand the sacrifices, but I'm not waiting for it by any means.

I know you must have had a lot of documentation to get an order this strict. I'm not saying she's not an alcoholic but is she a danger to the kids? Does she put them in her car and drive them around? Does she cuss and tell sex jokes or other things? What is it that she does when she's drunk? Is she a danger to them?

And why do you have so much control over dad's visitation? Is he a danger to them too?

It's very obvious you hate them, and him, and feel the power of total control. It comes across in your post.

Why do we think you hate them? You stated:

"I barely saw my kids all last week".
That's what happens when kids go see their dad for visitation. Most kids go for weeks and months at a time. Other parents deal with this all the time.

"I did not consent to so much time away from them".
They're visiting their dad, it's not about you. You have them all the time, it's dad's turn.

"I confronted my ex".
It didn't concern you. His parents can come any time they want. It wasn't his time to see the kids and his parents can see him when ever they want...but when they asked, you allowed the kids to go over. So it must not be so horrible over there. You're also "allowing" them to go away to with him and his parents for a week, 2 hours away, so again, they must not be this bad. So this reinforces that it's all about them and you and not them and the kids.

"She has always been mean to me".
So? Is she mean to the kids? Is she constantly punishing them or talking down to them? Again, the visits with them are not about you.

"extremely difficult to be around for anyone not related to her by blood".
Are your kids adopted? Then they ARE her blood so according to you she's nice to them but not you. How does she treat them? If they're mean to them because they're yours then the mediator needs to make sure you both get to address that issue.

These statements are why I wonder if this is more about how you feel about them or if there is a real danger from her drinking.

I get it, you hate them, I don't blame you. You want to control their visits because you don't want the kids around them. I get it. But, the kids are going to get older and see for themselves how you are treated and how you treat dad. If they only see your actions to control and limit things with dad who do you think they'll want to be around more? Dad's already have it easy because they get the kids and go do fun stuff with them. Mom has to work and struggle to make ends meet and can't afford to do all the fun things.

In all honestly is sounds like you guys need a court ordered mediator. Someone completely that in no way has any interest in the outcome of the sessions.

I say this so that both of you have your say without the other one being able to interrupt or butt in or change the subject when one of the people are getting things off their chests.

This will help you and him resolve your issues that are effecting your children.

*******************************

The point of all this is that if your ex's mom is truly a rip roaring alcoholic you and he need to do mediation so he can hear you and you can hear him and the mediator will help you guys come to an agreement where you can let him have his visitation and he can manage his mother.

You guys can come to much more agreeable terms of visitation. With everything written down. He needs specific visitation too. If his parents come in town he can cancel or discuss it with you. You can say no to that BUT he needs specific time with his kids that he can count on. That you can't say no to if you don't feel like it.

When it's this stressful for ex's to agree on things it's better to have a mediator help you write up a better court order. With reasonable restrictions regarding all alcohol use and smoking and everything that the kids could be exposed to at his house. This way all your kids have to do is call you and say "Hi mom, grandma's drinking again. I want to come home."

since you have legal documents stating you have to agree on visitation i would have the lawyer write the ex and his parents a letter restating this. they don't get it and need a reminder. and then you have to put your foot down and be strict on getting your way. no more bending over backwards for these crazies. if you don't want your kids spending extra time with them before a full visit then say so. tell them no. if they make a big stink about it the lawyer will be able to help keep things legal according to the legal documents.

Unfortunately however much you hate them, if it is his time, then it's his call that his parents see them. You can only control things that impact the court order or your time. You can say no to adjusting your own plans for his benefit, but if he has his parents over when it's his time, then that's his business.

I agree with Missy that you start to follow the CO and stop accommodating him so much. Don't let his lack of planning impact your plans.

I think you are still angry about the past, and perhaps angry that your family doesn't see the kids as much as his does. So find a way to let the past go, and perhaps also increase the time your family sees your kids.

Hi A.,

I just want to tell you that I think that you did the right thing coming HERE to vent about how you have felt about your ex-parents-in-law taking advantage of things over the years, and doing it again after being divorced from the family. You could have raised a big ole stink with them, but you vented here.

Now, I know I'm coming on here late after the fact, but it bothers me that you've been told here that you hate the people. That's not fair for someone to say. Hating them would mean that you wouldn't give them an inch, much less a mile. Believe me, I've seen hate with some of my friends. To the poster who decided to lable your conversation as hating your ex-in-law's, try this one on for size. My friend's wife took her children on a trans-Pacific flight for the summer, making her ex fly all the way there in order to be with his children. I mean it. Instead of 2 hours traveling, he had to buy overseas flight tickets and rent a place to house him and his 4 kids because of his ex's hate. He's a school teacher and I wonder if he turned off his heat all winter to save for this.

I DO hope you'll take Heidi's advice - it's good advice, although I would still have gone to see your mom regardless. You're a better woman than I would have been if my kids hadn't seen my side of the family for that long.