Discipline - Dayton,OH

You'll probably get more responses if you give a specific behavior you are trying to correct, rather than a "general" information request. It really is too broad to be helpful.

Be firm and don't be afraid to be the parent. Positive does not have to mean fun for the child or pleasant. Positive can mean having respect for parents and behaving in a pleasing manner to earn rewards like being able to watch tv or do something fun. I'm sick of people trying to convince their kids to behave. Insist on it. Expect no less. My daughter recently told me it would be impossible for her to keep her clothes in order (put in drawers folded, etc). I told her that I was going to get rid of everything except 5 outfits then if she couldn't care for them. She folded her clothes. Because she knew I wasn't joking.

Positive discipline can be very effective. It only works in conjunction with get off your butt parenting. Meaning - when you tell her over and over to clean up her room, she learns that she has plenty of time to do it. You need to be sure you have her attention when you speak to her and be physically involved - not just tell her to do something over and over. Also - cleaning up her play area can be overwhelming to a five year old. She needs it broken into clear steps. When she doesn't do it, putting her in time out completely takes the focus off the task she was supposed to do.

The positive parenting technique here. DD - we need to clean up your play area so (insert reason here - we can find your toys, the puppy doesn't eat your toys, mommy doesn't impale her foot, etc). Either a) how can I help you finish what you are doing now so we can clean in 5 minutes or b) we will clean up in 5 minutes, so please finish whatever else you are doing. Then give a 1 minute warning and then help her/show her how to clean. DS - you put all the legos in the lego box, while I pick up the stuffed animals. When the legos are done, you give her the next task to do. It is fine to also tell her how long you will clean up. DS - we will clean up for 5 minutes now and then 5 minutes before lunch. When the clean up is done, you say why that is good - That looks great DS, now we can leave the room and not worry puppy will eat your toys and get sick. Let's go do X. Positive parenting actually does NOT involve praise. Praise is the flip side of punishment and is also a manipulative technique for getting her to do something. Much better to show her why doing something was good and to be specific (Wow - you cleaned up quickly so we can do something fun sooner rather than wow, you are a good cleaner, good job).

Take a look at Laura Markham's AHA parenting site. It is great.

Just from what you wrote, I think something desperately needs to change. If she's so out of control that she's peeing herself; if you are so emotionally engaged and this is such a charged event, it might be time to consider finding outside support. Your pediatrician's advice to try Time Out is simply not working for *your* kid.

Usually, I would suggest a book or a class. You might certainly try Love and Logic, but if this is escalating to such a degree, it's time for perhaps a behavioral evaluation or assessment. I did a Google search and Dayton does not appear to have any parent support centers, but this is what I think you need.

In regard to cleaning a room, I'd first clear out her room so the amount of toys is limited. This is to ensure she doesn't get overwhelmed. Put some of it in storage for a while and then you can trade back in when she gets bored with something she already has. Limiting items is important. Then, when it's cleanup time, five minute warning, ask her if/what she wants to keep out. Some kids get an 'scene' or "play" set up and want to use it continually. I figure that as long as there is space to move around the room, then it's okay to leave something out. So, try to see if she's needing to leave something out b/c she plans on using it the next day.

Once that is established, help her clean up. If you are saying "clean up your room" and then walking away, you are setting her up for failure. Kids this age still sometimes need friendly company. I usually give 'sorting' directions: "You pick up all of the cars (or whatever toy) and put them here, I'm going to put these pieces of track away". JOIN HER in the task. If she refuses, then you *calmly* (no emotion) say "I see that you aren't wanting to take care of your cars, so I'm putting them away for now." CALMLY put the cars in the bag/box and put them in the basement or garage, with a note: can come back at (date). Then, again, go to the next item and calmly give the direction: "I need you to fly/jump, collect X toy into this basket now, I'll hold the basket" (this is so you don't end up cleaning up half her room). Refusing? Once again, "well, I see you don't want to pick up Xtoy, so we'll put this away too."

It is REALLY IMPORTANT not to get emotionally engaged at this point. Some discipline practices advocate lots of talking and reasoning with kids-- I think that for your daughter's temperament, this is NOT the route you want to take, it's only going to escalate the situation as well as her temper. Just "I see you do not want to take care of.... so it goes away." Be sure to walk OUT of the room and place that bag away immediately... don't let the bags stay once they have the item. So, during that walk to the basement/garage/storage, take a lot of deep breaths.

The removal of toys IS the consequence. Period. No other ones. You can write on the calendar when which toys can come back. This is good, so if she asks, you can show her "Oh, I see we have three more days before Xtoy comes back, so you'll need to find something else." Crying, begging? "Well, you weren't taking care of those toys, so they had to go away for a while."

Just wondering, have you considered where this stems from? If this is a bid for attention, one thing I have regularly used in both my time as a preschool teacher and a parent is the practice of giving positive attention during neutral times. I'll break it down for you:
Usually, parents will praise a child's behavior which is pleasing/helpful for them. They will scold a child when the child is exhibiting behavior which is a problem for us: we respond with negative attention for negative behaviors. Somewhere in our day, we see our kids engaged in what we can call 'neutral' behaviors: this is behavior which is not a problem for us, nor is it behavior which is meant to elicit a positive response; the child is doing something just for their own pleasure. These times are typically when the child is engaged and happy in what they are doing WITHOUT our attention. THIS is when we do want to give positive attention, and the most powerful way we can do this is with touch, without talking. No words-- a pat on the back, walking by and tousling their hair, a gentle squeeze on their shoulder or something else which is pleasurable touch for them... this sends a very powerful message that we do, indeed, love and value that child JUST FOR BEING. When my son is getting into a tough spot, pour on just this sort of attention as much as I can. I'll walk by while he's working on his legos and kiss the top of his head, give his shoulder a squeeze, wink across the room at him. All of that to say "you are fine and I like you just for being you".

This is a VERY powerful practice and I encourage you to try to do this as often during the day as you can. Many parents set themselves up by saying "well, if they are playing, that's the only time I can get my work done and I don't want to interrupt them". This is why we don't speak, no praising at this time, and why I nearly always do this from behind the child, so I do not visually interrupt their work.

So, all of these things-- please, try them. NOTHING is going to give you an instant result, this is a long-term investment in helping her to feel good, competent and capable about herself and her abilities. I do think kids who like themselves are more willing to help, see themselves as a valued 'doer' in the family. It doesn't mean they don't complain about chores or will do them cheerfully every time, but it does help them see that they are important to us in a healthy way, and that we do pay attention to them without their acting out/attempting to please us. That our love for them is not conditional. This won't change behavior overnight, this is more about making your child's 'foundation' strong.

Good luck!

This seems really extreme. Have you thought about taking a parenting class? Five year olds generally want to please their parents, but she seems abnormally rebellious and out of control. If this continues I can't imagine what you'll be dealing with when she becomes a tween/teen. You also seem VERY emotional about it. I used natural consequences more than anything else, that gave THEM the power to make good choices. For example, you can watch TV after you have gotten dressed and brushed your teeth, or I will set up the paints after you have put your blocks away.
Also, you can't be too vague. Saying "clean your room" to a five year old is like someone saying to you "clean your house." It's overwhelming. They need specifics, put your clothes in the hamper, put your dolls in the dollhouse, etc. And you need to be calm and firm, not emotional. Your heart shouldn't be breaking over this, you need to be the adult, rational and reasonable.

Are you thinking about Aware Parenting?
It's a parenting style where the child is not disciplined but rather everything is discussed for a better understanding of why each action was undertaken.

Not my cuppa- but I have heard of some people having success with it.

"effective and non-punishing discipline" is this like new math?

To effect any positive change doing the right thing must be the path of least resistance.

You need to have an action = consequence talk with her. and make a poster of it on the wall somewhere. it can be on a door, the fridge etc.
example
leave toys out = toys go to the saturday box (she doesn't get them back til the next saturday)

scream = no tv
hit = stayng in her room for time out
throwing toys = loosing them

now having said those things you have to pick and choose your consequence. and if she screams she screams. she will only scream if she has an audience. put her in her room bodily if you have to and close the door. if she opens it just walk away.

as far as the puppy goes is it hers? does she want it or did you get it "for her" and it is not working out. if she doesn't want it and feels your spending more time on it than her get rid of it.

you don't say do you have other children is she an only? are you pregnant? are there other things going on? there are many things that will make a child act out. if you have eliminated or confirmed any issues then its a power struggle. just don't engage.

Welcome to mamapedia!!

When my boys did not clean up after themselves, I gave them 3 chances. If after the 3rd time they did not comply with my request, the toys, shoes, clothes, whatever was left out - was mine. They had to EARN them back.

If she is hurting a puppy? I'm sorry - I would get her to a counselor/therapist. That's not right.

Throwing objects? NOT acceptable. What you might need to do is have your daughter evaluated for some disorders.... Opposition Defiance Disorder....seek out a therapist who has the skills to deal with her behavior and teach you how to react, respond and discipline without violence.

Good luck!

Why not try counseling to find a way to talk to your daughter about what's troubling her? Honestly, it sounds like you've been through a lot and dealing with constant pain while parenting must be very difficult. It sounds like she is aware but not involved in what's going on with you medically. This is very scary for a kid as her imagination will create fears that may be totally unfounded.

There must be a way to talk to your daughter about your struggles which is age appropriate and will help her get some of her feelings out. I do not think this is a standard situation of needing new discipline ideas.

She is probably much more aware of your medical issues then you know. She is likely scared and confused. Why not find ways to communicate with her about what you're dealing with? She obviously knows you are not physically well but no one is helping her to understand what that means and how to deal with it. Good luck!

Welcome to Mamapedia!

I think you should look into some parenting classes.

Get the book 1-2-3 Magic. It will help you better understand how to separate your emotions from discipline and how to define and follow through with consequences.

Take a class in Parenting with Love and Logic.

Study child development. A 5-year old is not capable of "listening." They do not have the vocabulary or life experience to understand yet all of the things you are trying to "explain" to her. Her brain has not developed enough to understand abstract ideas like respect, being nice, etc. She thinks very concretely and is living only in the moment.

Discipline is about clear, concrete requests with a set consequence that happens every time. The reason she accelerates her behavior is that she knows that eventually you will give in. If you have cable, watch Supernanny and watch how she sticks with a new form of discipline until it takes (even if that takes an hour or more).

As moms, the greatest sabotage to good discipline is our own need for our children to never be upset. You must give up on that idea because it isn't reality. It is okay for our children to experience negative emotions. The important thing is for us to give them the skills and tools to express those emotions appropriately rather than trying to make sure they never have negative experiences.

time out had become a "game" in our house, where he would stand in the corner for a bit, then "run away" so we would then catch him and stand him back in the corner. We decided we weren't interested in plaing that game. time outs are now administered behind a closed door. he is put into the bathroom at my parents, or he can choose his bedroom or ours at our apartment. if out, he is made to sat down. counting doesn't start until he is quiet. we get an apology, hug and kiss when time out is over. He is then asked to do whatever it was that he refused to do. if he still refuses, right back to time out.

good luck to you and yours,
F. B.

You have gotten some great advice. One thing that jumped out at me was the puppy. Please don't use him as a teaching tool. He needs to be kept away from her and safe!

Added after your SWH:
"She is not listening about how to handle our "new puppy" and is treating him quite poorly much to my breaking heart. "
This is why I said what I said.

Seems to me you have enough on your plate without throwing a pet into the mix.
Please find another home for the puppy as a kindness to the animal.
You've tried taking things away but you haven't tried taking the puppy away.
Having a pet is a privilege and her behavior is not where it needs to be in order to have a pet.
Maybe in 5 or so years you can try another pet.

If she has more toys than she can pick up, try limiting how many she can get to.
If she has no more than 3 or 4 at any one time it will be less overwhelming for her.
If that's still too much than she gets only one or two things to play with at one time.
Has her hearing been checked?
A wrestling match over a time out by the age of five does not sound normal.
A 3 yr old -yes but a 5 yr old - no.
Has she been been evaluated by a pediatric behavioral psychologist?
I think you need some professional help that will guide you in how to handle her and I don't think any parenting book by itself is going to be enough.

One thing that worked for my Mom with my sister was this: when my sister was having a tantrum (laying on the floor kicking, screaming and banging her head against the floor) what stopped it cold in it's tracks was my Mom simply left the room.
When the intended audience was gone, the performance was over.

Well, she's 5 and a lot of what you're talking about is normal 5 year old stuff. She's not supposed to be good at picking up stuff and not making messes. She's experiencing her world and often at age 5 that requires she uses her senses of touch, smell, and more.

I suggest you find a way to see what's normal and not so normal. You say you're experiencing extreme behaviors. What you're describing is not so abnormal so maybe it's not her worst you're telling us about.

My grandson, at age 5, would take any item he could and break windows, make holes in the walls, pick up furniture and throw it at people, flip the dining room table is he didn't get what he wanted, etc....that's extreme.

So, if your child is not that extreme I think perhaps you have very high expectations that may not be within her age group. Kids make messes, they don't want to clean their messes up, they fight, kick and scream when they don't get their way, they get tired and crabby and talk back. They're kids and require teaching that is age appropriate and simple.

To teach her to clean up her messes you have to be in there with her, making a game out of it, giving her praise for doing a good job, you have to pick up what's left when she doesn't do it herself. YOU have to limit her access to too many things. She is overwhelmed if she has too much stuff. Minimal is best, you can switch out the toys every few weeks if you want.

As for the puppy, it's your job to keep the puppy safe, kids don't often understand the fragility of life and don't know how hard they are playing. So keep the puppy away from her! She has to be taught, again, you right there, sitting with them, taking her hand and showing her how to touch the puppy. Over and over. If she still isn't getting it then keep the puppy away from her at all times except when she is sitting in your lap and holding the puppy in hers or interacting with the puppy when you're holding it.

I suggest you find a Love and Logic class in your area. They are wonderful in my opinion. They teach what natural consequences are. For instance, if a child is told to wear their shoes because they will get cold feet if they go outside without them but never know what cold feet feel like they will continually take off their shoes even when it's snowy outside. They get carried or the adult finds the shoes and puts them back on, a great game for a kiddo.

I have a granddaughter, she was maybe 3 when this happened, and she would take her shoes off each and every time we got in the van. She would toss them any which way. So when we got to the store I would be hunting for 5-10 minutes for each shoe. I got tired of it.

After taking the Love and Logic classes I decided I had said "your feet will get cold/burned if you go outside without them, leave your shoes on when we go somewhere".

One day I had had enough. I was enabling her to have shoes on when she needed to understand what could happen if I didn't carry her or go find her shoes and put them back on.

It was a snow day, pretty cold but above freezing. We had been to Walmart and I had a couple of bags to carry in. I went to get her out of her car seat and she had naked feet.

I plopped her down on the driveway in the snow. She started screaming and hopping up and down. Wanting me to pick her up. I said "no kiddo, I have to carry the sacks. What happened to your shoes? Did grandma say it would be cold without them? Well, run to the deck so you can get out of the snow". She ran to the deck, didn't die from cold, didn't lose any toes due to being in the snow, no long term damage at all.

To this day she leaves her shoes on in the vehicle. She learned I was right, she learned if she doesn't have her shoes on when she goes outside her feet might get cold.

Teaching kids consequences of their actions is something that is thought provoking. Finding the right consequence should be easy, if they don't pick up their toys those toys go into time out. If they make a mess with play doh the play doh goes into time out. If they smear peanut butter on the walls to finger paint the peanut butter has to go in the trash and they get to wash walls.

I think you will find a solution to this child's behaviors. I do think you need to be more active in what she's doing so you can teach her in that moment instead of telling her what to do as much.

She may have some mental issues such as a sensory problem. Tantrums and other behaviors can be a signal there is something else going on too.

Seems to me that the problem may be that you spent her baby years trying to make her happy all the time. That's easier to do when they are little, but as they grow up, it becomes impossible. Your child is used to you doing whatever it takes to make her happy. Now that you can't do that, she is unhappy. Not hard to follow.

Your daughter just has to learn that she is not the center of the universe and she needs to learn how to handle disappointment and sadness. I think you should just give her emotional support while she learns to work through her disappointment.

Have you ever watched Supernanny. Sometimes those parents are putting kids back in time-out for hours before the child actually stays and completes the time out. I suggest that you have not done that because if you had completed it just once, your child would know that no matter what it takes, she WILL be in time out.

All in all, I think you are looking for an easy way to discipline your child while keeping her happy while you're doing it. Not going to happen. Let her experience disappointment and sadness. Without disappointment and sadness, happiness and success wouldn't really mean that much.

The thing that stands out to me is "If she doesn't pick up her play area after being told over and over, things thrown about will be packed up for later..." When you are having to tell her the same thing over and over with no consequences then something isn't working. Why should she listen to you the first or second time when she knows that she'll get 3 more, you know? And then there's a consequence and she gets angry.

I don't have enough information from your post to give you much advice. I commend you for reaching out and recognizing that something isn't right to the methods that you're using. Five is a difficult age, and it sounds a bit like she's ruling the roost. Here are a few book suggestions that might help... I am not a fan of Love and Logic, but some people swear by it.

Here are some good books that might be helpful.
How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk.
How to Behave So Your Kids Will Too

Good luck!

Our son was incredibly hard at age 5...he kind of escalated to being at his hardest around then and then gradually has matured and gotten easier as he has gotten older...he is 9 now. But this was always his personality so it was never a surprise. Is this new to your daughter's personality or has she always been hard? I once contemplated ODD and we went to a child psychiatrist about this...but it ended up with him saying we just have a very smart, very stubborn, very defiant child who always wants to test boundaries. He is still like this...yet easier now bc he is more mature and can handle his emotions better. At age 3, 4, 5 we had to hold his door shut while he had his time out bc he would be so enraged...trying to kick it open and throwing things. We just stayed calm and once he was over his tantrum he could come out and we would talk about it. One thing that is reassuring is he is never like this for his teachers, coaches, etc. He is very well behaved at school (and for the most part at home...but still he really wants to test us at times). That is how we know he does not have ODD. Love and Logic really is helpful. 123 Magic really was helpful. Being very black and white with him on the house rules and giving him very consistent consequences helps. What works for him is to take away screen time (he loves video games) and to take away playdates (he's super social and loves to hang with his friends). Also motivating him works - having to earn something he wants (such as video game time). Has your daughter started school? Does she do this for her teacher? It might help her to talk to a therapist who can help her with methods of controlling her anger. If your daughter is like our son she will get better control as she gets older. Just keep being consistent. Give her lots of love but also always be very consistent (never a pushover). It's hard when they suffer so...we have to guide them. I love this quote: "If you see a whole thing, it seems that it's always beautiful. Planets, lives... But up close a world's all dirt and rocks. And day to day, life's a hard job, you get tired, you lose the pattern." (Ursula K. LeGuin). We as parents have to remember it can be so hard day to day but we have to step back once in a while to see this person we are helping guide through life and how amazing they are. Hang in there.