Dealing with a Much Older Bully: What Would You Do?

I think any real, legitimate, karate instructor or school worth their salt would not have tolerated such an ill behaved kid for that long. I highly doubt that they are learning real karate, and all of the concepts behind it, honestly.

If you do take up the offer to meet, you are entirely right to question what the goal of the meeting would be.

BEFORE any meeting took place I would want to know:

Has someone from the school told the other parents what you were told: That this is a warning for the boy and he will be expelled if there is another complaint? Who (get a name and title) told the boy's family this and when? Was it done verbally or in writing? Have the parents been notified of this directly or was the boy just told it, verbally only, and told to tell his parents? I would want to ensure before meeting them that the parents were told exactly what I was told -- directly to their faces, preferably in writing, and not via something told their son. I would want to ensure also that the school's director or owner spoke to them, and that it was not just the boy's karate instructor giving them this message. If they have been told this by the owner/director that's preferable, because they cannot then say, "Well, the instructor said this, but we're going over his head and appealing to the owner."

I would want to know who the "mediator" is and if this person is actually a real, trained mediator or just a well-meaning staff member. Who is it? Has this school had so much of an issue with bullying that it has done this before? (Red flag!) What is the purpose, in the school's eyes, of offering this meeting? Is the school offering this on behalf of the older boy's parents, perhaps, who have said they want to meet with you? It could be that they want to see you and have their son apologize to yours in front of you, which would be excellent for all involved and much to their credit; or it could be that they have not offered any such thing and the school is behind the idea of a meeting when the other parents don't even know the school has offered it. Which is the case??

What is the end goal here? I would not meet unless I knew there were going to be an apology from the boy with no reservations. I don't see what there is to "mediate" between you and the other parents here; your husband knows what he saw and this child had his hands on your son, period. If the other boy is claiming your son did something to HIM, you need to know that before you enter any meeting with this family.

It could be great that the school is suggesting this, showing the place is responsive; or it could be a problem, indicating the school is either so scared you'll sue or publicize it as an unsafe place that it's trying to "mediate" away the incident. I wonder if the offer is out of sincere concern or out of concern about the possible legal or publicity issues they fear you could bring on them? I'm not saying you should; I'm saying that as a business they may be worried about those issues more than about your son. Impossible to tell until you talk to someone.

I honestly don't know whether to advise you to take this meeting or not, but I would certainly go in person and talk with the director or owner before deciding whether or not to go. And I'd be clear this initial discussion was between me and that individual -- without the other parents or child present.

Right--you won't be able to accompany them into the mens room, but you can let them go with you into the ladies room.

Personally, I would skip the meeting, and let the warning & consequence of him getting kicked out stand. Seriously, what's to "mediate"?

(I also think your husband was a little lax in that he let a 3 and 5 year old go solo to the mens room when there are kids THAT much older present. Not that is excuses the bully's behavior....but he has been warned and given O. more chance.)

"My husband thinks it would send our son the message that we are going to advocate for him in issues like this" That is exactly the message you want to send-it shows how you feel about your son, how you feel about bullies, and how strongly you feel about ceramic tile and porcelain sinks coming into hard contact with your son's head. He's five years old-not eleven-that's not even a fair fight. The school needs to know where you stand-and the parents need to discipline their son and nip this situation in the bud-the next child may not be so lucky.

I think you should meet as the facility suggested... as hubby said, it shows you WILL stand up for your child, and this also will send a CLEAR message to that young thug that his behavior will NOT be tolerated!

Sit by your hubby, and have a few signals between you... if he feels you are loosing your cool, maybe he could squeeze your had to remind you to show control, also? Or just make a personal vow to listen, and not really speak.... I know the mama bear wants to come out! Or, as others have suggested, have hubby go to the meeting alone......

AFTER YOUR READING YOUR SO WHAT HAPPENED:

I don't understand it at all. Why would you want to challenge something else when you haven't resovled the most important problem at hand?

First at age 3 and 5, they would go with their mother into the ladies room and/or I would be standing right at the men's room door holding it partially open talking to them while they were using the restroom.

I would want to meet with the parents and the schools management along with the children. The eleven year old is plenty old enough to understand that if he does it again he will be out.

Children should learn to stand up for themselves, but the bully in question was more then twice your kid's ages, so how's that going to happen?

If you can't handle a confrontation without losing your own temper, then you have two choices, let your husband attend or find another school for your boys.

I would take the meeting. This would send a message to the bully, and also show your children what steps should be taken in dealing with bullies. I feel like the facility is handling this appropriately. If during the meeting, if the 11 year old does not seem receptive, the you could ask for his removal. I think the facility has steps in place for bullies, and they are following them. They exist, in a way, to help kids like that learn to channel the energy positively. They typically like to give a chance for change. If there is no change, the kid is gone.

Personally, I think 5 and 3 are too young to be going to the bathroom alone. Your husband can take them, and you also, can take them in with you. (Women do this ALL the time with their children, it is not weird or unacceptable.) You're right that you can't always be with them! However, they are at the age where you SHOULD still accompany them (The 3 year old, at the least) them to public restrooms. This does not mean that bullying is ever acceptable. This means you are able to protect them from harm, while they are still learning to deal with bullying and unsafe situations alone. I would NEVER attend a facility, that does not allowed parents in the restrooms with children.

Yes, I think that your husband is right. You should do this meeting to show your son AND the other parents that you take these things seriously.

i can see being spooked, a little, but it's also very easy to make mountains out of molehills.
was that older boy bullying your kid? you bet. and the coach, the facility and your dh have all suggested sensible responses to it.
if you are not able to control yourself enough to sit through a meeting (a separate issue that you should be addressing, you need to have the capability of modeling calm, thoughtful responses to your kids), then let your husband go. or skip the meeting altogether and trust your coach and the facility to deal with it, just keep a watchful eye on your kids.
the 11 year old got caught. he's probably scared. that's a good thing. but he too is a child, and he's taking martial arts classes. without knowing more about HIS situation, one can at least hope that he learned and is continuing to learn better behavior.
what's the issue with restrooms? both your kids can accompany you, and even when your son turns 6 there's an available restroom upstairs. get there on time.
take a deep breath. this is a situation to be taken seriously and handled seriously, but it's really not cause for panic mode. you need to be sending the message to your son that he can handle himself, and that you guys have his back, and that the world is a sometimes dangerous but ultimately good place. this incident should not be rocking your entire world.
khairete
S.

Don't over-react. They reprimanded the bully and he's not in your program anymore...wait and see how it goes.

The facility seems like they are listening and dealing as best they can. He probably won't bother your kids again now that he was caught.

Martial arts should also teach him when it's appropriate to confront too.

I think that you and your husband should meet and talk to this boys parents without the children present.

Let them know that you are concerned.

I DO NOT think the children should go because your son is 5 years old, and this boy is 11. Your 5 year old should not HAVE to deal with this older child. You can tell him that you are going to go talk to the 11 year old's parents, and you can tell him afterwards what happened, but I wouldn't have your 5 year old present.

As far as the children going to the bathroom on their own, I don't see this as an issue. Good for you for letting your children learn to be independent, and not being one of those paranoid parents who thinks everyone is a predator. I hope you continue to let your children learn about life in this way.

first off they can put up as many signs as they want, my 6 year old would still be going with me. ESPECIALLY if there was an incident. since you reported it and all i would think it would not be challenged if you did take him in the ladies' room.

i would go to the meeting. i would not want my son there if i had my choice. and i'm not sure i'd go into details when telling your son. tell him mom and dad have some errands to run or something. he's young enough that he should be protected, by you going to the meeting, yes. but dwelling on it, i'm not sure is a great idea. this isn't about the kids at this point, it's about confronting the parents who have raised a child to act like that, and maybe make them realize they need to STEP UP. and i would also expect an apology. but i'd keep my son out of it as much as possible. at 5 probably he has gotten over it by now, i am pretty sure mine would have. but i would not let them out of my sight at that establishment again, either.

the sad thing is that this older kid is the one that needs constant supervision, and i betcha that will never occur to his parents. then the lesson we all as parents of younger kids take from it is that because of THEIR negligence, we have to be doubly vigilant.

There is something very wrong with a boy who would pick on a kid that is half his age.
The fact that the coach and karate instructor seem to know something about his reputation says to me this is not the first time he's been in trouble.
It's like this other kid can not be trusted to be unsupervised while on the premises and they are hardly going to escort him when ever he needs to use the bathroom or locker room.
When you are with your boys, you can stand outside the boys room and talk to them (and if there's a problem - yeah, you barge right in as loudly as you can - literally "I"m coming in!" and boom - you are through the door), or you can take them with you the ladies room - they are young enough it would be ok.
I'm not sure what I'd do about the meeting.
On the one hand - I don't want this kid bothering mine (or anyone else), but I'm not sure talking with his parents would accomplish that goal - they could be in denial they are having a problem or they really might not be able to control him.
The facility must know that letting this kid slide would be bad for their business.
The fact that he's got 'one more chance' might mean he's already had 1 strike against him or maybe they are always letting him squeak through with a warning with nothing to back it up.
Guess a meeting couldn't hurt - see how it goes.
All I would want out of it is that I don't want this kid to touch my kids again - he has to keep his hands/feet/other body parts to himself, and I would hold the parents and facility responsible for any future problems if he touches yours again.
There is no excuse for it.
They are not even the same age range so that they would ever be in the same class.
If it happens again, either he leaves or you take your kids out of there and you will be sure to tell people why you felt you had to leave - bad press/word of mouth hurts their business.
Always have a parent present with your kids when they go to this place.
My son's taekwondo place has had a problem child or two whose parents were hoping the discipline would help straighten them out (and maybe avoid medication).
It doesn't always work.
When every single class turns into being all about so and so's disciplinary problems - it's not what I'm paying to send my kid there for.
This one problem child ultimately had to leave.

I think for a one-time offense, you should let the facility handle it from here. Teach your son to go to an adult when he has been bullied, and role play that with him if you have to.

This kind of thing isn't that frequent, so don't worry. I wouldn't assume that the place is loaded with bullies, because of this one kid. But do role play with your son how to confidently stand up to bullies, and report them to authority figures, so that he is able to deal with it if/when it happens again.

I'm sorry, but I worry what would have happened if your husband didn't walk in! Honestly, it could be more than just an average bullying... he could have had intentions of molestation. UGGGH...

I'd do the meeting. It brings everything out in the open and could benefit everyone involved. It also gives you that guarantee that not only his parents know what happened, but they know details and can see the how young the child is that is happened to.

I don't wanna kick someone when they are already down, but 3 and 5 is waaay too young to send two boys in the bathroom w/o an adult. Together or not. I JUST NOW started letting my 5 year old in the stall by herself, but I'm right outside the stall door, in the bathroom with her. I understand that a trip to the urinal is WAAAY easier than a girl going in public (for one, those seats are high for them), but there are so many ridiculous things I've heard that happen in bathrooms. Even a "safe" place cannot be so. Heck, I go in with my almost 9 year old girl. If no one is in there (I check!) and I don't need to go, I stay outside the bathroom. If someone is there, even a frail little old kind lady, I stay in the bathroom and wait for her.

I think the fact that your husband spoke up at the time shows your sons their parents will advocate for them, and in your place would pass on the meeting, which I'm very surprised was even offered but it shows the facility is serious about dealing with the bullying problem. If your husband is insistent then he should go.

I know where my nephew goes for twae kwon do the sensei is VERY into respect and talks to the classes about it at every meeting, perhaps you and your husband could talk to the instructor and ask if he could do the same and use it as a time to bring up bullying as an example of not showing respect.

Also, while I realize you cannot go into the restroom can you not stand right outside the door and call to them to let anyone in there know you are right outside? I do this when I take my grandchildren places and the boys go in if I think they're taking too long. AND, I have instructed and remind all of them, boy or girl, to scream at the top of their lungs if anyone even attempts to bother them in any way, that they have a right to speak up for themselves.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with hubby sending the boys to the bathroom unescorted.

I don't know what the purpose of the meeting would be, but I do agree with your hubby that it would make your son feel better knowing he can count on his parents and he would probably think (maybe mistakenly) that because the other boy's parents were brought in, that the incident won't be repeated.

I would ask for the meeting just to give your son some peace of mind! It had to have been terribly frightening for him!

Call me crazy, but I am not seeing the point of the "meeting". What is the goal? I have read your post about 3 times now (I keep coming back to it), and I just am blind to what the school is looking to do here.

Why have the boys present for the meeting? It seems to me, that if anybody is going to meet, it would be parents only, unless their son is claiming that what your son said is not true. If he is wanting to apologize, they should say that up front, that that is the reason for the meeting. They haven't. Why?

Maybe I am paranoid, but I also don't tend to view this as a simple bullying incident. He had your son "pinned to the wall with his arms above his head" and "spun around" when your husband walked in. To be completely frank, that doesn't sound like plain bullying to me. It sounds sex linked. And I don't say that lightly.
Maybe I am way off base, but the arms above the head just doesn't sound "right" to me (not that any of it does). All an 11 yr old would need to do to "bully" your son is lean towards him and act mean. He probably towers over your son. Did he hit your son? Choke him? This is why I am not getting the "against the wall" thing. I suppose I could just be dumb to the ways of boys and bullying, but what was he gaining from this? Did your son have money on him? A toy? What? Why would he do anything to him? Was there any prior relationship between the boys?

I sorta thought most bullies liked having an audience. That's part of how they get their jollies... having power in front of other people. It's no "fun" without an audience. So why would he "bully" him in "private"? I think THAT is what grates me really wrong about this.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to make my son sit in a meeting with that boy. And I'm not sure how much I would trust the parents sitting in the meeting either. Either there is something going on that the boy is modeling, or they aren't using any effective discipline with him, since supposedly his behavior has already been an issue, or they don't believe he did anything wrong and want to defend him to you. I would think if they wanted to apologize, the gym would have told you so.
Just my thoughts...

Personally I would stop at mo less than getting that kid kicked out of the facility. How I would do it would be to make sure that every parent there know what happened to my child and realized that this kid was still around.

And you can ABSOLUTELY acompany your boys into the restroom and in fact SHOULD because they are and will be for some time too young to go themselves. Let me tell you a story-here in Pgh, in a library that also had a police station in the same building, an 8 year old boy was raped in the mens room by an 18 year old. Video cameras caught the kid. Nowhere is safe for what can happen in the blink of an eye. Another story-11 year old boy molested in our local movie theater bathroom while his mom waited outside. My boys are 8 and 10 and they always accompany eachother in now or I make sure the room is empty or we find a family restroom.

I would go with what Leigh and Malia said, both important points to keep in mind.

great answers so far I"m not sure i have too much to add, but i'll give you my thoughts.

First Could this older kid have been trying out a karate move? tha't probably a dumb question the pinning the arms is more wresting. And the fact that it scared your son doesn't sound like a hey look at this cool move.

Second: While it probably wouldnt have been too wise to do, I know i would have been pumping my kid ( both actually) about what happened and what the other boy had said to him before the arm pinning. Can you add some info ??? What did this kid say to your son?

Third, i have to agree with the questions Leigh suggested you ask before going into this meeting.

I come from a preschool background where if two kids were having problems we could encourage them to sit down and talk it out and label their feelings and apologize That sort of thing, My initial reading was that a meeting would be very beneficial for impressing the older boy that his behavior is inapproriate and lends weight to them kicking him out if there are other problems. so as someone else mentioned it might be the facilities way of covering their own butts and doesn't really benefit you or your family much BUT might make the difference to this 11 yo if an adult can clearly tell him that his behavior isn't ok.
Unfortunately unless his parents are receptive to hearing this, yes they could get defensive and start stuff. You know yourself best, could you let that roll off your back ( I can't believe there is any way they could credibly push this back on your kid so it would just be a matter of standing strong and calm in the face of crazy. AND shielding your kid from this.

I want to address your comment about the center not teaching respect adn honor, I don't know how long this 11 yo has been at the center, but depending the level of respect etc that he started from he maybe slowly but surely learnign thos skills. Just like a baby falls down while learning to walk. How you choose to address this might make the difference between helping him grow and shutting him down. which is easy for me to say sitting here on my couch, I didn't see the kid and i don't know where he comes from.

I know the restroom issue has you scared and i'm sure you and Dh make the best choices that you can at the moment, I think people have made some good suggestions about breaking the rules about bringing DSs in the ladies room, or about dad going in with them. I would also say make him go at home before you leave, or if you are out and about stop somewhere else were it is more accepted taht he accompany you before you get to the lessons.

So in your place, i would start having some discussions with both kids on how to get out of a situation like that, no eyecontact with others in the restroom, scream if you are uncomfortable..

and i might lean towards the meeting AFTER i had some quesitons answered.

Good luck,
This is one of those questions that i hope you update so we can know what you decided and what all happens.

Leigh has some really good points to clarify before a meeting, but you are right in that addressing the issue sends the right message to your kids.
My son takes karate and they take respect seriously. There have been a few kids in the class who have not been allowed to test for their next belt because of inappropriate behavior, including bullying. So a kid that has been preparing for a test, parents have been paying for classes which are not cheap, was unable to move up in the class until the bullying is stopped for at least 3 months. They school met with the parents and child to explain why respect is so important and if they want to leave the school they can but they will not get any money back. I hope this karate school takes it as seriously as my son's does. It would be good to find out what association (Tong Soo Doo, Kung Fu, Taek Won Doo, etc) they are affiliated with and how they expect these problems to be dealt with.

I'd want the meeting to make sure that the bully's parents know that their son is a bully. Maybe it's not a case of the apple falling near the tree, and they will actually try to do something to "fix" it. That's best case. Worst case is the parents are complete jerks and in denial. Either way, you show your son you are there to fight for him.

And I think it's fine for them to go into the bathroom without you or your hubby. Particularly the 5yo. I'd make the 3yo go in with either you or the 5yo, though.

J.:

If the older child is taking a martial arts class the Master or SaBuNim did not immediately correct the child - it's not a place I would attend.

If something like this had happened at our DoJung? The child would have been IMMEDIATELY reprimanded for poor behavior and had more than a warning issued.

I realize this place is gymnastics as well as Martial Arts - but really?

I would NOT take my children to this meeting. I would go. I would state what my son said happened, allow my husband to state what he had seen and to ensure that this NEVER happens again. I would also ask what the parents are doing to prevent this behavior - i.e. counseling, etc.

At the ages of 3 and 5 - I would NORMALLY allow my children to go to the bathroom unaccompanied - it appears you may not be able to do that here until you feel comfortable that things are being handled. I would stand by door - just like I did when they were that age. I would have them talk to me as well - especially when we were at places like the mall or a restaurant.

First of all you should ALWAYS take your sons in the bathroom with you especially at that age. Women don't mind and in fact if they don't have to go to the bathroom and the women does she makes them stand at the door even up to 10 - 11 years old. If you do let your son go to the bathroom alone make sure there is another dad that you can count on that goes with them when they get older.

I would watch and see and ask the instructors if this boy is still doing this type of thing. If not this may be enough but if so then meet with the parents. If you cannot stay cool in the face of this then don't go to the meeting. It is imperative that you stay cool, calm, and collected. You also might ask your son what he wants to do because he was the one attacked. Explain to him about why you would do this so he understands that this is to help this boy not harm him.

N.

When my 5 year old was in gymnastics, I marched him into the girls bathroom/dressing room to change and go to the bathroom. He only used the men's room when my husband took him to class and went in the men's room with him. It was never a problem. Given the situation, it might be the best option.

I actually was confronted by an older (and naked) lady at the swim center that my son was too old to be in the women's locker room. She assumed he was older, because he is tall. I told her he is under the age limit (which is 6 at our swimming pool) and told her we both weren't ready to have him on his own in the men's locker room. Of course she told me that in her day her four year old was capable of being in the men's room and showering alone. I explained I needed to keep an eye on him for his safety. He had no interest in checking her out anyway. haha.

I still worry about my six year old, but allow him in with a friend who is his age or older. He still never goes in a public store men's room unattended.