I'm worried about my just-turned-4 daughter's behavior. She is our younger child and was a very easy going baby but developed a very strong sense of self and a very strong will at a young age. When she was between the ages of 1 and 2, she smeared her poop all over her crib and bedroom walls probably on 50+ occassions. We tried different pajamas, putting them on backwards, etc. but she always found a way to do what she wanted. She often is very negative and will wake up first thing in the morning and announce that she doesn't like anyone, or that she doesn't love her sister. She frequently will do things that she absolutely knows are wrong such as coloring on the wall or flushing the plastic dome-shaped bolt covers at the base of the toilet down the toilet...she's even flushed her own head while in the toilet. She can be very sweet, but we see mean spirited behavior from her everyday. She seems to emmulate characters on Disney movies that she has seen at friends' homes and always likes the "bad" characters such as Cruella Deville. The thing that has me the most concerned is that on three separate occassions, she has put her hands around the cat's neck while saying she is choking her. Of course, I screamed to let the cat go and told her that she is hurting the cat....she just says "and she will get blood?....and go to the hospital?...and go to heaven? and then does it again when the whim, strikes her. She is now not allowed to touch either cat without our direct supervision...the cats have to be locked in a bedroom with a key while I shower, etc. The three times that she has done this have been spaced apart and she is kind to them at other times and rough with them on occassion, and then the choking... She is very different from our 6 year old daughter who is kind, sensitive and very in tune with the feelings of others. We realize that all children are different and don't want to compare them, but I worry that she will become a person that doesn't care for anyone but herself. That she will have no empathy and hurt others. Am I over-reacting or is there cause for concern? We've all heard that people that hurt others often start by hurting animals. Could this be more an age/immaturity thing versus something more. Please help.
Thank you all for your responses. I did want to provide a little more info and an update on what we are going to do. I will post an actual update when we have an action plan. Anyway, to answer a few of your questions...
The feces smearing is long gone. It's been approx. 2 years since it's happened, but I thought it was relevant because of the frequency with which it occurred. It seemed never ending that whole year between ages 1 and 2.
She does go to preschool 3 morning a week and her teachers comment that she is outspoken and very much a leader, but never crossing over from assertive to aggressive. Her teachers also comment on how smart and "mature" she is and that she is very well-behaved. The maturity thing really shocked me and I actually thought at first her teacher might have me confused with someone else's mother.
She does have friends and gets along with them well...of course the usual age-appropriate squabbles occur from time to time. She gets along very well with her sister too, except when she's not getting along with her, if that makes sense! They hold hands, hug each other after being separated, play in the bathtub for an hour each evening happily, etc. That said, she will at points throughout the day, everyday, comment that she doesn't like her sister, or that her sister is a "boy", or she will stand in front of the TV so that her sister can't see, or run off with her puzzle piece. I actually think their relationship is quite normal and good for the most part.
Her relationship with us is very up and down too. She likes to be around Mom or Dad, but gets frustrated with us and will say "I'm very frustrated with you, Mom." "Or you are being impossible, Dad." She has always been very mature verbally, but immature in other ways.
She has a fierce love of animals and is always trying to spot alligators, birds, armadillos, etc. as we run our errands through town. I own a pet related business and she has always loved animals, so I'm particularly worried about her behavior with the cat. It is not constant, it is not even regular, but the fact that it's happened three times, scares me.
She has always been (and will probably always be) very strong-willed. When we tell her "No" about something, we most often get a huge battle - crying, screaming at the top of her lungs, etc. She's very hard to console...very difficult to talk her back from the ledge, so to speak when she gets upset.
My mother is a school psychologist and she asked an interesting question - if our daughter were a boy, would we think her behaviors were less negative? As much as I am trying to raise my daughters without all the biases of gender, my mom's question revealed that she was right. I would feel less "worried" if she were a boy.
Today when I picked her up from preschool, she ran and hugged me and as we left the school, she told me that she "didn't have a good day" and that she threw up on Lucas's head. I said, Really? And what did Miss Christy say? She said that's OK to throw up on Lucas's head." She says the strangest things...
As far as our discipline style, we have tried many tactics with her and some work Ok and others not at all. We have found that being strict and non-wavering work better for her.
She IS a very strong-willed child, and definitely a leader. I recommend you sit with her and watch the same movies or tv programs and discuss with her what she liked or disliked about the characters and/or their actions. Explain the difference between fiction and reality and right from wrong. It seems she is a very bright child, just needs some guidance. Good luck
my friend and her kids are sensitive to food additives especially red and blue dyes, and preservatives. she said if her daughter eats red or blue dyed food she soon gets a weird look in her eye and starts acting awful. Most Americans eat stuff like this all the time because it is in more foods than you think. You may want to start reading labels and avoiding such foods and see if it helps.
My first reaction is that no, this is not normal age/immaturity stuff. The poop smearing, yes, I have heard of little ones doing that, but not 50 times. I don't know too many kids that haven't flushed something either, (usually Daddy's watch, the TV remote, cell phone) but never their own heads! The pet situation is worrisome. Some kids don't understand how to touch/not touch, but she isn't touching, she is intentionally choking (from what you describe) with a goal of killing the cat to see the blood (?). That part ... I have two kids, 10 & 7. They have never even hinted at the dog bleeding from injury, let alone injury that they caused, with glee (?)... Is she emotionally removed in everything? Approach everything like a scientist? There are disorders that keep children from experiencing emotions and empathy the same as most people. I think I would take her to be evaluated and see what a therapist/neuropsychologist says.
Second thought is, what is you, your husband, your other daughter's reactions to all her behaviors? Is she looking for YOUR response? It does seem a bit extreme, given her age, but I suppose it could be extreme jealousy over big sister. Does she behave the same when big sister is/is not around?
I'm not a doctor or anything, but in answer to your question, I don't think you are overreacting. I would check into it further.
Hi E.! Oh boy..I don't even know what to say....but I am glad that you are not just brushing her behavior under the table. I don't know how much of this is "normal" behavior...but if I were you I would make an appointment to see a children's therapist. Call your insurance company..surely there is one under your plan. I personally have gone to a woman, Renee Mracna, from Families in Touch. She is in Western Lake Worth. Her number is ###-###-####. I know she also works with kids. Anyway, I would make an appt, and just ask the therapist if this is normal behavior. It very well could be. She could be acting out these naughty behaviors b/c she wants the attention away from her angelic older sister. Who knows..but I would really address it now, before she heads off to school. The hurting animals things does put up a red flag..I am really glad you are taking precautions with the kitties! You know, the therapist will either calm your fears, and tell you not to worry, OR work with her, and help to quench these behaviors before they escalate. Good luck....you are being a great mom by being on top of things!!!!
A. :)
E., you are right when you say that those who grow up to hurt others often start by hurting animals as a child. There is something called "antisocial personality disorder" which starts in childhood and is characterized by bed wetting, cruelty to animals, fire-setting and one more thing....I forget what the fourth thing was. Anyway I would take this very seriously and seek professional help for this child. There are a lot of good child psychologists around, and they could evaluate her and at least point you in the right direction. I don't know where you are located.....but Dr. Laura Marullo is a friend of mine and she is in the Delray/Boca area(she's very good)my kids see Drs. Art and Ana Brand in Boca (for grief counseling)plus there is a Dr. Cynthia Rubin in the same Boca office as the Brands; she writes books about childhood problems and while I don't know her personally, she is very well qualified. ....also you could check your insurance plan and see someone local to you. I wish you the best....I'm sure this is not easy for you and your family.
I can't say anything from experience here, but I recommend taking her to see a counselor. She may have some issues resulting from extreme changes or other such disturbances in her life.
HTH
S.
Hi E.,
Thanks so much for sharing your story. I can only imagine how you must be feeling.
I am responding because, as a mother (2yo little girl Naomi) and as a licensed counselor, reading about your daughter's behavior sent up some red flags for me. Certainly, there's the possibility that she simply has a different temperament from your older child, or struggles with being the younger sibling, etc. I think things like smearing poop on the walls could be potentially chalked up to that. And certainly, all toddlers/preschoolers engages in behavior they explicitly know is wrong (though usually minor) just to get a reaction from a parent.
However, the issue with the cats would be a significant cause for concern for me, not just as a parent but as a therapist. Now, I'm in no way diagnosing your daughter, but it is true that oftentimes cruelty to animals, along with a fascination with violence and violent characters, can be (but certainly not always) warning signs of Conduct Disorder, which can be a precursor the adult symptoms you mentioned - lack of empathy, etc. Is she in preschool yet? have her teachers mentioned anything about her behavior? Does she have little friends? How does she interact with them? How does she interact with her sister? I would encourage you to consider having her meet with a therapist or child psychologist (either way, someone who specializes in children), just to get an unbiased expert opinion.
I hope this is helpful, and wish you the best of luck.
S. T., Ed.S., LMHC
www.motivationforwellness.org
All kids have a mischevious side to them but I am worried over the intentionally choking the cats. I would highly recommend talking to your pediatrician about this and getting a referral to a child therapist. I really don't think that you're overreacting. It seems that your child has some underlying anger or fear and doesn't know any other way to release it without being disruptive or aggressive.
ok, I don't want you to think that I am an alarmist, or someone who tends to panic easily, because I really am not, but If you aren't joking, then I would run, not walk to the nearest doctor and then another until your daughter gets the proper care and intervention.
Both of those actions & big fat RED flags for extremely disturbing behavior that needs early intervention & medical care.
Smearing ones' feces on the wall repeatedly, especially in a verbal child usually indicates anger at some unmanagable situation, as does hurting small animals.
Please, Please take your child to a doctor that does not excuse the behavior away as something she will outgrow......she needs HELP. Be her momma & help her.
It is normal for kids age 3-5 to misbehave to test how far they can push you; but this degree of naughtiness has just gone too far. What kind of discipline have you tried on her? You do not mention what you have done to correct her. It is important that you set limits and stand by your decision, also that your spouse use the same discipline; otherwise she will pit you against your spouse. You are doing the right thing by not comparing the two girls, as each child is different. Please update so I can help you better.
Hi E.,
I am a SAHM of a 3 ½ year old girl and also a full time psychology student. I am by no means an expert and it would be irresponsible to throw out terms and possible diagnoses, but I will say that I believe that this sounds like an issue best addressed early. I think you should talk to your pediatrician and get a referral to a child therapist that he (or she) recommends. From there, if you like the therapist, then you should get some insight as to what’s going on. I think a very important step in the process is finding a therapist that you feel comfortable with. Although, I must point out that isn’t the same as a therapist who tells you what you want to hear. If that’s the case, your daughter won’t get help. I wish you luck and as a mother my heart breaks for you. Good luck in your search for a great therapist.
I would take her to a child psychologist right away. Even at that young of an age, psychotherapy can help her work through things and identify the true nature of the problem.
Good Morning E. - First of all I want to offer my sympathy to you. I have 3 children - all very different little personalities.
OK that said Son did do the "painting with poop" thing - ONCE when he was around 2, I guess it was hurting his little tush and felt horrible.
He also went through an obsession with death about 3-4 months ago, he is now 9 and the therapist said it was a normal thing - especially for boys. Apparently some children don't recognise the difference between movie violence/pain/hurt etc and real life tradgedies when they see them on TV.
He also interacts very badly with pets and animals, his kind of "love" is squeezing them too hard, he gets mad at the dog and lashes out too, but it is not every day as we supervise him way more around the animals. We have a "no hurting" rule in our household PERIOD. He still breaks it but he has consequences for it.
The bottom line for you is "Why is she choosing to be that way?" Is it an attention getting device? Is she experiencing some kind of jealousy? or does she have some kind of disorder? I really feel a good therapist can shed light on this for you. Unfortunately I am not in your area, but I see that you have been given some numbers from other Moms.
In the mean time, try your best not to react to her negative behaviors, calmly walk over to her and remove her from the situation and put her in time out, or what ever else you do for control, and do not say anything to her but "stay here for XXXX mins" then MAKE her go and clean up the mess that she has made, make her correct her mistake. She has to be taught actions and consequences from an early age, these are life skills that she is going to need forever. Stay strong and you are doing the right thing by reaching out. Good Luck and please let Mamasource know how you are all doing.
M. F
Hi E.,
I am the mom of a 4 year old boy. He's an only child, so we don't have the issues with siblings, but to us he can be very defiant - almost scary from a 4 year old - and stubborn. He's been like this since he was born, and when he was about 1 I started documenting his behavior. Because like your daughter, he would be super sweet one minute and then like he was someone else the next.
Anyway, without boring you with a bunch of details, we discovered that he had low blood sugar. His ped would never confirm through blood tests because apparently it's very uncomfortable for kids, but I knew that was the problem. So, his blood sugar would crash and he would get very aggressive, mean, and rotten. I started keeping fruit chews and lollipops in my purse and whenever the behavior would start, I give him sugar. Amazingly it helped.
Now that he's 4 I can spot the signs a mile away and know when he needs sugar. And if I catch it on time, it never gets out of control. This may be something for you to consider.
Another thing with my son is when he doesn't feel well. He can't express yet or doesn't really understand that's the problem and his aggressive, defiant behavior will come out. He's had a recurring ear infection - that we are finally seeing an ENT for - for over 3 months. He's had fluid in his ear and has been very 'mean' on and off. Again, that's how he expresses that something is not right with him.
Sorry for rambling, but your story sounds a lot like mine and I think you should try the blood sugar thing....or watch her for some kind of infection or sickness. But most likely sugar.
P.S. My son also is a perfect angel around everyone but me and daddy. People are usually surprised when I describe his behavior at home. But most likely she's the most comfortable around your family and is free to express herself.
Good luck.
G.
Take red 40 dye and yellow dyes out of her diet. I saw a huge difference after my son ate regular foods and drank colored drinks (after age 1). Some children have an intollerance to these dyes in foods and drinks. Check out reddye40.org. Consider what other moms say too-
sincerely,
C.
I don't want to be rude, but if she were my daughter I would seek a counselor/therapist. Ask her peditrician if she recommends anyone that counsels children. This would be a great start.
I don't think you are over-reacting. I think you are doing the right thing by being concerned that she might have some issues.
Please seek professional advice. This is the best route to go. Many responses are also suggesting this route.
Keep your head up :)
Good luck and God bless.
E., I'm sorry to say this, but the extreme cruelty toward the animals -- to the point where she can't be left alone with them -- and some of the other behaviors are not normal naughty behavior for a 4-year-old. The fact that she swings from extreme angel to extreme evil is alarming.
I, personally, would be worried about some of her behaviors whether they were done by a boy or a girl. We tend to expect boys to be more aggressive than girls, but cruelty, spitefulness, and especially mood swings, are not typical behavior for children her age.
It's great that she is outspoken and somewhat of a leader, but the "maturity" that you are speaking of is not really maturity at all, but what psychologists and psychiatrists call "pseudomature," meaning that it is a child's attempt to seem adult-like, but they aren't actually mature. As you stated, in some ways she is immature for her age. This is not typical. With maturity, we expect social skills and awareness of other people's feelings. You said she doesn't seem to care.
I agree that there is something to worry about. Do you have any idea why she is so angry? Kids who act out like that have something to be angry about. I would expect some of these behaviors from an older child who has been displaced by a younger child -- but not the other way around, a younger child who has an older sibling who loves her and pays attention to her.
I would definitely do everything necessary to find out what is making her so angry. Find out if she has some kind of imbalance in her body that makes her aggressive and out of control. Age 4 can be a difficult age, just like age 2. Children seem to go through the worst power struggles during the even ages -- age 2, age 4, age 6, and so on. She sounds a little bit like a teenager who is having hormone fluctuations. Please get her checked out by a medical doctor to make sure all her blood work is normal, and get a referral to a professional who can help her with these behaviors. I would definitely NOT wait and see anymore. If she continues to be angry, frustrating and raging without being able to get past it, it's going to affect her emotional growth and her ability to socialize and attach to other people and also to animals.
I don't want to scare you too much, but virutally every serial killer in recent history started out by harming animals in childhood. Most kids have to learn how to take care of their animals and how to play with them without hurting them; there is always an incident or two in a child's life, but a child who habitually hurts other living creatures, animals or people, and seems to enjoy it, or is curious about what the animal or person will look like when it is dead, has a big problem.
Please get her help. Love her, love her, love her, and please get her help.
I will pray for your family, and I do hope that she grows out of this into the loving young lady she has the potential to be.
Peace,
Syl
wow, she sounds like a little wild child! :)
first of all many blessings to you. it is great you are asking for help.
It sounds like you are clear and rightfully concerned.
My 'advice' for you would be to keep offering words such as "gentle , loving and kind.
It is was my MANTRA with my daughter when she showed signs of this behavior around 2,she rarely is like that anymore,I said it over and over, even when people laughed at me.
also maybe showing her something she really likes and pays posative attention to and showing her her own "posative" nurturing behavior and ask her how it would feel if that someone was destructive to the "so and so".
I guess trying your best to stay "neutral" ( yea right!) so she does not get a reaction.
Also maybe talk to her about accidents , blood , hospitals so it becomes something more real and not so "wrong' and/or take her to a local childrens hospital for a visit( they may take you on a tour,if you ask) ,let her understand in a human way what she has seen or heard from others and tv.
and something I have heard over and over is that the worst of the worst children at the age of 2-6 became the best of the best around 7 or 8 or 9.
we will pray that this too shall pass!!!
good luck
Hello E..
I do believe you have cause for concern with your daughter. Does she hang out with any little boys that may be aggressive like this? It does seem more typical for boys to behave this way than girls, and if she's seen one acting out in this manner (with the cat), she may think its okay. Do any of her friends have brothers? Also, if she has seen ANY horror movie, even just a glimpse, she may have been traumatized and acting out because she just doesn't know any other way to compute the images. I would seek counseling for her ASAP to curb this behavior before it becomes really destructive.
About the poop thing...my brother (and I'm only sharing this because its something to look at) used to do that, and it turned out that he is schizophrenic. I don't mean to alarm you...but perhaps speaking with a mental health professional would be a positive move for your whole family.
Hope this helps, and does not offend. Have a great day.
C.
you've had enough responses, so I wont reiterate what the others have said. I just wanted you to know my heart goes out to you. Get some help for yourself too. You must be under incredible stress worrying about your daughter, the animals, and Im sure your other daughter as well. Hang in there. You are aware there may be a problem, so Im sure things will work out with the right help. Good Luck, E.. Please let us know how it turns out.
Wow, you described your daughter very thoroughly, and here is where to start :
Talk to your pediatrician ASAP, and also ask for the name of a child psychologist , and GET started on addressing your beloved daughter's issues NOW!! You are right not to compare, and also right to be concerned. Can u imagine what the preteen or teen years could be like if this doesn't get outgrown or addressed by professionals?? Good luck, hang in there!
Boy or girl, be concerned and continue being loving and consistent. Every child is different and she is finding her role in the family; positive reinforcement as often as possible (and only when appropriate) helps to reinforce good behavior. Creating opportunities for her to shine and finding one-on-one time for her with each parent (and the older sister) are also valuable.
My husband, teen daughter and I alternate one-on-one time with our little girls (six and almost four). Our youngest is also a bit wilder but I find that when they're getting plenty of focused attention and/or directed play activities, they are much more fun to live with.
We have a small cd/tape player in their bedroom and I find that often just going in and putting on some music can end fights and make supervising a short clean up time actually pleasant. Re-directing is often the best bet, counseling may also help -- sounds like your mom is handy.
Hang in there,
L. D.
mom of three
If you are worried, which you are, you should take her to be evaluated by a professional. I am glad that you recognize and are concerned about her behavior as alot of parents seem "blind" to bad behavior in their own children. However, I would continue to keep a close eye on her, especially with the cats!! I always hear the older generation talking about what a terror their children were (our generation) and everyone has grown up to be well adjusted, successful people. I was concerned raising my step son that he was self centered only caring about himself, so I made a point to praise him every time he did something nice, like hold the door open for an elderly gentleman, and made it a point to tell him the neighbor commented on what a nice boy he is. This made him feel good and want to do nice things, slowly turning things around where I was comfortable in knowing he had compassion for others. Good luck.
WOW......Your daughter sounds alot like my middle child (son) who is also resently 4 yrs old. He is curel to our dog in almost the same manner. I feel like I have no control over his negative actions. When my son sees my face after his actions he says he wants to hug me and that he won't do it again.
Dear E.,
I think you should seek a professional CHILD therapist,
to help you family find a solution. This is way over my head, although I have raised 3 daughters and one son.
I wish you all the best, hopefully she is just trying to get attention, but an expert can best advise you :)
Hi E.!
I'm not a psychologist; however, I work with children and come from a big family (14- 8girls, 6boys). It seems that your 4yr. old child may have some anger inside. The cause is unknown, but have you asked her why she behaves in that way? She probably imitate disney characters like Cruella because the antagonist gets all the attention, they're powerful and have control. And it could fascinate her? You should talk to her about the character of both protagonist vs. antagonist. Explain to her that having good character outlast negative behavior and is highly esteemed.
She probably admires her oldest sister personality and feels a little beneath as younger children do. Continue to monitor her behavior; especially with the cats or any animal. I would be concerned with my child (boy or girl) mistreating animals, it can lead to something serious. However, I'm happy to know that she doing much better. Keep up with the strict discipline, you know what works and what doesn't! Peace to you and your family!
Hi E.,
I think you have every right to be concerned. I would take her to a good child therapist/psychologist ASAP. Her behavior doesn't sound normal to me, so maybe something is going on with her that you aren't aware of. I would definitely get some professional help.
Good luck, L.
I live in Orange County and took my son to be evaluated for behavior issues. He qualified for behaviorial therapy and it was free. Now my other son is having behavioral issues similar to your daughter...very negative and destructive attitude. To deal with it, I thought "What would our therapist have suggested?"...MORE POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT. So I started rewarding him when he behaves properly and after consistently reinforcing that for a couple weeks, I have seen some improvement..he wants to please me more. I also believe part of the problem is a cry for attention, so I would try to make one-on-one time for her with you and your husband. And definitely continue to be consistent with your discipline. Kids thrive on that.
I feel that bad behavior comes from sleep problems a lot of the time, although you may think she is sleeping all night she may not be in a deep sleep and an over tired child is going to act out. I really feel that a sleep study is a route to take before putting any child on meds for like adhd.
You need to take your daughter to a child psycology or a child psychiatry for evaluation. you need to speak to your daughter's primary physican first then,they can refer your daughter to a child psycology or a child psychiatry because the sitiation sound like she might lead into anti-social personity disorder, or different kind of mental illness or personity disroder also, possible other issues when she is getting older. After evaluation result, they can tell you what's wrong and what's cause then deal with her behavior to improve or whatever. Depend on how much serious or mild on her mind and personity. They can tell you what to do with her. You may take her to neurology and have them to evaluation into her brain (CT Scan and other different kind of test) see any wrong with her brain or not. Go get her a professional help before to late.
I am concern that you mention "flushing the plastic dome-shaped bolt covers at the base of the toilet down the toilet...she's even flushed her own head while in the toilet. she has put her hands around the cat's neck while saying she is choking her. Of course, I screamed to let the cat go and told her that she is hurting the cat....she just says "and she will get blood?....and go to the hospital?...and go to heaven? and then does it again when the whim, strikes her". These are warning signs, need seek a professional help.
good luck
