Child Custody & Visitation

Dear O.,

Did you both agree to accept what the mediator decided? Some information is missing here. On what basis was this decision made? What did the father say made him a more qualified parent?

Blessings......

The amount of child support that he has to pay is unrelated to how often he sees or doesn't see your daughter. It's related to his current income and expenses as well as her needs. The court has a chart that they go by tho there can be some give and take.

I think the purpose of the mediator is to help the two of you work out what you both expect. The court hopes that the final decision will be acceptable to both of you. His role is to help each of you understand what is reasonable.

Please do not equate the amount of child support with what you deserve to get as a good mom. The two are unrelated.

I just went back and read your post from December 9, 2009 in which you say that you limit his contact with your daughter. Do you have a court order outlining parenting time? If so, limiting his contact, will go against you. Is he asking for more contact? Is he basing his request for less child support on your limiting his contact?

Based on very little information, I suggest that you are assigned a mediator because the court wants to help reduce the anger in this situation. If you're coming off angry when talking with the mediator,(s)he may believe that you're being unfair. I've done a lot of mediation type work in my role as a police officer. If one person is angry and the other seems reasonable then the reasonable one gets my support. The mediator has no way of knowing if he's all show. Information that you give him in anger is discounted to a great deal because of the anger.

The mediator may also be showing your ex more verbal consideration because he intends to recommend against him. The difficult one often gets the most attention. One reason is to allow him enough "rope" to "hang himself." Or he may be trying to get you to be more reasonable if you're coming off as angry and judgmental.

If you have further contact with the mediator be as calm and unemotional as you can be. State information in a factual way without placing blame.
The court just wants the facts. Your anger will get in the way of the judge understanding what you actually need in comparison to what you think you deserve.

Life is not fair. One of the lessons my mother taught me was that if I continued to expect fairness I would become an angry and bitter adult. And "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." So true. Sweet talking does work. That's often why the father who "bullshits" the judge wins.

After reading Theresa S. post, I find that child support is affected by parenting time. I think that this is a change from when my daughter was divorced. Another very good reason to have an attorney!

From my quick reading of the law, tho, I think it says that this formula is for when the parents share custody and the parent asking for reduced child support has to have the child at least 25% of the time to have parenting time count towards a credit which is a percentage of something. I think shared custody comes in there too. But I'm not sure and would only rely on the word of an attorney.

The whole situation of custody and support is extremely difficult and painful! I do wish that in addition to parenting and relationship knowledge we taught our children the facts about divorce and custody. We're leaving too much up to chance in all of those fields. Love is not enough.

Just because the mediator suggests it, doesn't mean you have to agree to it. Get a lawyer.

I don't have any advice but I just wanted to let you know you have support. The same thing happened with my daughter and her child's father. It seems like these mediators go out of their way for the father, even if he is worthless. Her child's father was also only interested to keep his support payments down. He got 50% custody and because he was supposed to have the kids exactly half the time, no support was ordered. Well, he never takes the kids like he's supposed to and also won't help financially because the court didn't award child support and they just simply don't seem to care that he doesn't take the kids even though he has the right to and she doesn't get support because he says he takes the kids half the time. He also won't help her to provide for the kids - says he only has to worry about providing for them when they're with him which is NEVER! Where do these guys get their ideas? Someone needs to take them out and beat them with a stick!

Just to clarify, the mediator agrees he should have MORE time with your daughter, NOT that he should have FULL CUSTODY, right?

I know it's frustrating. It can be especially hard because even though this is your child's father, he is also someone with whom YOU have a history, and not a great one, or you would be together.

Unless there's a risk to the child, the mediator is probably going to recommend that you BOTH be in her life. Try to remember that mediators are trained, child or family therapists and that they really ARE concerned with the best interest of the child (That's the reason the court takes their recommendation instead of the judge trying to sort it out his/her self). I know how hard this is (I've just finished a very disappointing custody mediation myself). Assuming positive intentions, her dad WANTING her in his life is a GOOD thing.

Do you have another meeting with the mediator, or was that it? If you get a chance, I'd make it clear in mediation that you are open to the father being in her life, but you are concerned about disrupting your daughters life for what you fear will be a temporary arrangement given his history of not using the parenting time he has. Ask for some kind of gradual build-up to whatever time you ultimately agree on. Do not just dig your heals in and say he can't have her. That won't work and it makes you look like you're more interested in punishing the dad than giving your daughter the opportunity to have both parents in her life.

Good luck with this. Big hugs.

T.

P.S. To clarify for others, in California, custody cases are referred by the court to "mediation." But the mediator is actually a recommender to the court. They are family or child therapists and try to get the parents to agree to something that will work for their family, but ultimately, the mediator makes a recommendation to the court which the judge almost always accepts as the order.

Dear O., check your divorce and visitation decree, make sure you are going by what it says and take notes, notes and more notes all of the time. Keep records of emails, letters and phone conversations. A voice recorder can also help, just make sure you are using it per the law of your state and county, some require you to advice the party they are being recorded, and that even helps with attitudes and the truth.
Remember that one day, your children are going to be grown and make their own decisions, they will remember and look back and make their own truths about their childhood and who was there for them, who held them, who loved them and who fought for them when they couldn't. Trauma seems to be remembered more than the happy times, but the happy times will be remembered.
If Dad has been out of your lives, try to find out why. Some men do not do good with infants and toddlers, they are at a loss of what, how and when to take care of them. Talk to him if you can, if you can't, have the mediator find out why he hasn't been there for you.
Keep your cool, concentrate on your daughter and what she needs. I know it sounds crazy, and it's so frustrating, but the courts are trying to find a better solution to divorce and custody. The saying "What's best for the child" seems to sometimes get confused with "Parents Rights." So take a deep breath, calm down and look at the situation from your daughters eyes and even through his eyes if you can.
I am not defending him or the courts, Most of the time I don't agree with them. From what I am understanding, he only wants to get to know his daughter, give him a chance for that, she will make up her own mind and let you know what that is as time goes by.
If it is only about the money you will find out soon enough, and so will he as he gets more involved in her life. It's hard I know, but hang in there and remember, notes, calm, and coolness will win.
I am going through this too and it is hard to hold it together.

Listen to Marda P. !

If he is willing to step up now, and be in her life, it will be good for her to know her father. Sometimes doing what is best for our children mean playing nice with those we would rather never see again. I am sorry you are going through this, and with only the limited glimpse here I can not access you situation, but in general what is best for a child is to know both parents, even if they are not together, and to have them work together as co-parents even if they are not together as a couple.

Since you are in California, the level of custody does affect the child support equation. As other have said, get an attourney. My child's father stopped visiting him when my son was 15 months old. This spring the family court judge agreed that after a year and a half of no visititation my son's father was essentially a stranger to him, and granted that his previously agreed visitation be withdrawn.

I don't know why they would grant him full and sole custody. Typically they do not do that unless the other parent is deemed unfit. I wanted to file for sole custody of our daughter for years but everyone keeps telling me that I wouldn't get that granted to me, even though her father only sees her everyother weekend and is not involved in her life at all.

Get a lawyer. Dont wait another second. All it takes is one judge or mediator to have lost his own kids to make him side with every father. You dont know your rights, or the law nearly as well as a lawyer will. pay the cost so you dont pay the price.

I don't get it either. The courts seem to be going so far out of their way to NOT discriminate against fathers any more that they're letting a lot of real creeps get away with a lot of BS!! It makes me SOOOO angry because I also have a custody case and every time we're in court I feel like I'm drinking crazy juice because everyone seems to buy his cock and bull sob story grandstanding (and believe me, it's nothing more than that). It's SOOO frustrating!!

Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone.

Edit: I'd like to add that the first post isn't necessarily the truth. Depending on where you live, the visitation schedule CAN have an impact on how much child support is paid. Just so you know.

I live in FL and child support is related to how often he sees my daughter. Once we get to the 50/50 mark then it goes drastically down. I know this because my ex also tried to get more custody to reduce child support. What the mediator says does not matter. If you don't agree, take it to court. Also, get an attorney if you don't have one. If you have valid reasons why he should not get THAT much custody then he won't. If it's just because he hasn't been there in the past, or you don't want child support reduced then that won't be good enough.

In my state, child support and visitation are two separate issues. How much (or how little) the dad sees the kids does not impact the support amount.....not sure about California. If I were you, I'd get a good attorney to cover everything. Good luck!

(Plus, I don't think you HAVE to settle for the mediator's agreement--in PA, it's a first step to avoid court.)

Hmmm....
I may be a bit late in responding to this, but I am in California as well.
First of all, any time something is filed with regard to a revision in custody orders, parents are sent to mediation first in hopes that they will be able to reach an agreement without a lenghty court process. If they can get parents to agree, it's for the best, but you don't HAVE to agree. I've been threatened with the mediator reporting to the court that I refused to be cooperative, but I had domestic violence and police reports so I held my ground. That being said, almost all mediators will want a child to have time with both parents. Hopefully you kept track of father's history of not utilizing his rights to be part of his daughter's life because at the least it explains why you would have reservations about giving him more time on "paper."

I have to respectully disagree with those who said that the amount of time a child is with each parent does not factor in to the calculation of child support. It most certainly does. That is why many non-custodial parents want their time percentage raised and often want a 50/50 arrangement. Trust me. My ex has tried to get more custody about a thousand times and the last time, he literally only got two extra overnights a month and they recalculated the entire support order and it was lowered. The crappy thing is that he doesn't fulfill what they call his "periods of responsibility", but the order for that timeshare percentage is on file with the courts and he pays less even though in actuality he doesn't have our son anymore than he did before. But he pays less.

The thing is, this has nothing to do with whether you are a good mother or not. Like I said, many non-custodial parents try this maneuver.
The thing you have to remember is that you can't keep a child away from the other parent and you can't force them to do right, either. Whether it's being part of their lives or helping to financially support their child. At one point in time, my ex was just shy of $30,000 behind in support. They didn't consider that to mean he's a bad parent.
If you get support, great. If you don't, you don't.
You can't let that stop you from doing everthng you can to provide for your child even if you have no help. My daughter is 23 and believe me, she knows who took care of her and who sacrificed and worked her butt off. Not because I ever said anything....but because I was the one always there for her. It would have been nice if Dad had done the right thing, but he didn't. And, she basically has zero relationship with him now, by her choice.
In fact, she was telling me just the other day about him going on.....how all he ever did was pay his child support and give her everything she ever needed. He went years without so much as sending her a birthday card so she knows better. I didn't work two jobs a lot of the time for the thrill of it.

Remember that the mediator doesn't "give" either parent what they want, but they do make recommendations to the court.
Maybe you can offer a temporary arrangement for x amount of months to see if Dad is serious about wanting more time and have a review.
If he hasn't really been much a part of her life, he should be willing to maybe take things slowly at first out of consideration for her. He DOES have rights, but what is in the best interest of the child should always take precidence.
So, you don't want to sound uncoopertive, but be open to trying for cautiously optimistic.

I wish you the best.

I can not figure out why things go this way for people. It makes no sense to me at all. I say, if money is the factor then tell him he owes nothing and you will keep his visitation where it is. Then he is off the hook. Nothing good can come of your child being bounced around and taken from you and sent to her dad's after this amount of time.

Now that being said, if things still go the route of him getting custody - GET A LAWYER!

Good luck! I really fell for you.

* One last thought, I just read the response from Marda from Portland and although she is not totally correct on the child support being in direct relationship to visitation (some states it makes a difference and some it does not, they all handle it differently) she is 100% right on the mediation. You should really take into consideration some of her advice on how to handle yourself.

Get an attorney. it's the only way to fight a biased system.

Good luck to you.

Hello O., I really think that you left out part of the story maybe without meaning to.
I know that the family court hearings that I have been to several things have been taken into consideration.
1. was the parent building a better life or living on welfare
2.was the parent able to take care of self and child without being dependent of family and others for help.
3. What was the understanding when you got pregnant? were you just sex partners, meeting one another's needs, friends or thought you had a committed relationship? which seems to not be the last one.
4. Is the father of the child now in a better relationship and place financially to care for the child than you are in?
Father's in many states do not have to pay child support to have visitation rights. You did say 8% of time-- that is not much time.
If someone is trying to determine who the child is better with then there is much more going on than you are thinking/telling of. As a single parent you can have his wages garnished and get the state to collect if you are recieving financial help.BUT beaware if he thinks about it he can do the same to you.
This has nothing to do with if you are a bad parent or not. It is all about the way things are presented and information is understood.
I know if 1 mother who had the help of welfare, she could have gotten a education, bettered herself and made the choice not to and now she has only herself to blame that the father has gotten his act together and can provide better for his child withthe help of the new woman in his life. Not my choice but it was hers for not taking advantage of things when she could have.
So think about what some of those that repsonded said and act upon the advice.

First, it depends on where you are as to whether parenting/visitation time counts towards child support. I live in Oregon, and it certainly DOES matter and is directly included in the calculation. Marda, if you don't believe this, simply go to the Oregon Division of Child Support and run the online calculator--which is what attorneys and judges use as well.

My ex-husband had almost no interest other than to limit his level of responsibility. He didn't want to have the kids at times when it might interfere with his "freedom", he didn't want to have them when he had work--I had them when I had work, so not sure why that was a big deal, he didn't want to drive them from his new apartment to the school they had been in since kindergarden and suggested they could go to his new neighborhood school because it would be so convenient--never mind that ALL of their friends went to the school they were already at. He didn't want to take them to the doctor when they needed care, because it might involve co-payments or costs over the medical insurance I paid for. BUT, he asked for joint custody because he KNEW that would mean 50/50 time and less child support for him. As it was, he got away with about an 8th of what it cost to raise them at the time, and never paid even that much.

BUT, as Marda says, it is often the one who comes off as angry (and you have EVERY RIGHT to be angry and hurt) who ends up not impressing the judges and attorneys, since they see this stuff all the time. You would think the mediators, etc, would get a clue from this--the one who has the most emotional energy is probably the one who cares the most, right? But no, it's often the guy who comes in and plays cool, friendly, quiet and "reasonable" who gets more credit.

So get yourself a good attorney, one who really gets what the difference is between the two of you as parents, and let that attorney do the speaking for you in situations where you might find yourself getting defensive or upset. You can also ask to have the court appointed mediator work with each of you individually, if it is too difficult to be in the same room and maintain calm while he's playing games that potentially could hurt you.

On the other hand, if he does truly want more time with your daughter, well, that may be a good thing. I know it's really hard, especially if you have been carrying all the weight alone for a long time, but try to really consider it for your daughter's sake and try to remember what he was like when you first got together. Is there a part of this at all that seems sincere? If so, try to work with that part.

But if you have been caring for your child, and you are able to keep your cool, there is no way they are going to take your child away and give him full custody.

If you dont have expert representation you will probably get the short end of the stick. There has to be more to your story, no one would take the child from you and give full custody to the father without some sort of reasonable explanation. What are you not sharing with us? If you are a good parent that is providing for your child I'm sure the court may do a 50/50 custody.