Breech Position and Versions

I had a successful version with my second son at 37 weeks and I'm so glad I did. Yes, it was uncomfortable, but anything to avoid a c-section is worth a try.
My advice would be to give all the "flip the baby" remedies a try, at 37 weeks try for a version and if baby comes early and is still breach, at least you'll know you did everything you could.
Good Luck!

I have not gone through a version but I did have a c section 2 1/2 months ago. They aren't as bad as I was led to believe. Yes, the healing time is certainly extended and my stomach is still a little numb. But honestly there was not much pain involved. I now know that when we decide to have #2, it will be a c section as well. I am not worried whatsoever.

My sister in law had one with her first and it didn't work and he water broke that evening so she had to have a c-section.
J.

My baby was also breech until about 37 weeks. I had a scheduled version at 37 weeks, but was determined to try other methods first. The thing that worked for me was going to an accupunturist for moxibustion (burning herbs by your pinkie toes - no needles). I felt the baby flip after only one treatment! I went to my scheduled version in case he really didn't flip, but it was confirmed by the ultra sound that he had moved into the correct position.

R.,
There's a great website called Spinning Babies http://www.spinningbabies.com/
It gives lots of suggestions for getting babies to turn without version. Good luck.

Wow. You're brave. I was afraid of both a version AND a c-section.

When I found that my baby was breech, I went to a chiropractor specially trained in a procedure called the Webster technique. It is much safer and has a much higher rate of success than the procedure they use at the hospital because it doesn't touch or disturb the baby AT ALL. This also worked for a friend of mine (she's the one who told me about it).

With the chiropractor that helped me, she had only ever had one woman it didn't work for (out of 90+), but that woman had broken her pelvis in a car accident at six months pregnant. For most of her clients, the baby turned in three or less adjustments, but it took my baby six because she had to move in stages because she started in the most unsafe, difficult breech position (single footling).

My regular chiropractor had never even heard of it so you might have some trouble finding a skilled person. I can give you the number of the woman who did mine and maybe she knows someone in your area since she's just in Green Bay.

R., I've had 2 c-sections. The first was done because my son went into ditress the second by choice. I have never had a version done before but my sister-in-law did and she said that was the painful part, and her baby moved right back into the breech position. She also has now had 2 c-sections. All you can do is read as much as you can so you are very well informed. But I wouldn't worry too much both of mine went fine the only thing for me is I felt sick for a little bit afterwards but that has happened to me during or after every surgery I've had.

You have had a lot of responses, but I thought I would add one more. My sister is a nurse and said a version is very painful and doesn't work have the time..she also said that the umbilical cord can get wrapped around the baby's neck. She was surprised that my doctor offered it to me.

A year ago I had a version as my daughter was also breech. It was an extremely uncomfortable and painful procedure that, in my case, did not work. My doctor told me that on subsequent pregnancies, whether the first was a natural birth or breech, the success rate is much higher. The reason being that on subsequent pregnancies there is more fluid that makes it easier to turn the baby. It's not a procedure I would opt to do ever again. I ended up having the c-section which was not nearly as bad as you might think. Granted, the recovery period is longer and it is a surgery. However, as my c-section was scheduled, I was able to repeat to myself all of the positives as compared to a natural birth. One was that, in my case, my daughter was born a week early. There was no painful labor, she didn't come out with a conehead or blotchy skin (she was absolutely gorgeous!), and I knew that on July 12th, 2007 I would be a first time mom by 10:00 in the morning. And, she did arrive by 10:06 a.m. I was also able to be absolutely prepared for her to come home as procrastination was not really an option. There was also the fact that once my due date came and went I didn't have to anxiously anticipate how much longer it would be until she arrived. I never talked about or thought about any of the cons as compared to a natural birth. A c-section, as with any other surgery, can be very scary. But, if you are in the hands of a doctor you trust, everything should go smoothly. Whether it be a natural birth or a c-section, I imagine the feeling you have when you see your new baby for the first time is exactly the same. Having had the c-section, I would never hesitate to have one again. Good luck with your version, if you so choose, and with the arrival of your new little one. Take care.

Jen M.

Hi R.,
My son was also breech. My doctor talked to us about having the version done, but said that it only worked about 50% of the time in normal pregnancies. I had gestational diabetes and he said that there would be less of a chance than that for it to work for me. We did talk to my husband's sister who is a chiro about the Webster technique. She doesn't do it, but knows someone that does. We decided against it because my son was bigger and we didn't want to put us through that, mainly him. We came to terms with having a c-section and I am very glad that we did. The recovery was longer, but it was well worth it. If you decide to try and move your baby, I would really look into the Webster technique instead of doing a version.
I hope this helps and good luck.

R.,
I had a version w/my 4th child. It did hurt. . .the Dr. had to make many attempts (12-15??) to finally turn him. My husband couldn't stand to watch and ended up turning pale and having to take a seat!! ;)
For me it helped in not having to go through a C-section.
Looks like you have some good advice.
Best of luck!!
J.

If by version you mean where they want to turn the baby by mashing on your belly, it can be done but its stressful to both you and the baby. And it hurts! The day after mine I felt like I had been a punching bag because my belly was so sore. My procedure was successul but I had to have a c-section anyway because my daughter heart rate was dropping with each contraction. She had had her first bowel movement inside the womb and the meconium(poop) was getting into her lungs. The Dr told me after it was all over that the bowel movement "could have been" caused bye the turning procedure. The c-section was done quickly for the baby's sake. It was not fun and kind of scary. I was a first time mother at 23 with only my husband for support, the rest of my family was 3 states away. If you end up having the c-section, get help. From a neighbor, from a friend, from a family memeber, whatever-do not vaccuuum, do not lift, just let your body heal. The hospital will kick you out in 24-48 hours and you will still need time to heal.

Most importantly, when/if you have another pregnancy-make sure you ask about a vaginal birth! My second was vaginal and so much less stressful, less painful, and all together a much better experience. However, i had to talk to 3 Drs before i found one who would even consider it, let alone support my decision.
B. j

Hi R.,

My baby was also breech and they tried doing a version. It didn't work and it was painful. I did end up needing a c-section. The c-section wasn't that bad though. The part I hated the worst was just having the staples in for a few days because they got stuck to everything and I was nervous they'd pull out. They don't always use staples now though. Sometimes they just use internal stitches. The surgery really wasn't that bad. I was doing stairs that day I got home. I was able to get up and moving right away. It was challenging getting in and out of bed for a few days though. Overall- not that bad! Good luck with the version if they do end up trying that on you and if that doesn't work... good luck with your c-section.

I have had both. When I was pregnant with my daughter she was breech (she is 8 1/2 now) and they started with the version, which didn't work so I then had the c-section. The version is very uncomfortable. I had two doctors trying to twist the baby into the correct position, but my husband held my hand through the entire procedure and it was alright. The c-section was very quick and went perfectly and I opted to have another c-section when I had my son 3 years ago. There is pain afterwards, but as long as you follow your Dr's directions you should be just fine. My advice to you would be to take the help of the nurses as much as you can in the hospital so that when you go home you are rested for your new little bundle of joy.

Jessica is right. I have similar advice to the yoga positions. Basically, you can lay an ironing board on the floor and propped up on your couch. Then you lay on it head down. Some women can feel the baby turn on its own. I'm not sure how long you do this, but I have read it in some books (as well as hearing it from my midwife). Perhaps you could easily find some info. online as well.

Also, are you sure you want to go with a c-section if your baby is breech? I guess it depends on what type of breech it is. Buttocks first is usually considered safer than a footling, although it can be done that way as well. I guess I'd personally want to avoid a c-section no matter what. I told my midwife that even if our baby was breech, I'd still want to have it at home. Call me crazy, but I believe (at least for my self) that it's better to have it naturally, even in that case. (There's a video out there: Psalm and Zoya, The Unassisted Birth of our Twins. I may have the title wrong, but the woman gives birth on her own while her husband records it on video. The first baby comes out head first, and the second one comes out as a footling breech...and it's the bigger of the two! Talk about empowerment!) So, don't ever give up. :) All the best to you.

My daughter was breech (first child) and they tried a version. It was uncomfortable, painful and unsuccessful. She wouldn't budge a bit. Pain was mostly in the time after the version procedure...belly was very tender and sore.
I went on to have an uneventful c-section but recovery was long and painful (compared to a regular birth, or so I'm told). If it happened to me again...I'd sure try EVERYTHING in my power to get that baby turned. Good luck!

Hi R. -
I would second Sheri K's advice to do some hands and knees postures. You might also try taking an ironing board (or other board of some sort) and leaning it at about a 30 degree angle against a piece of furniture, than laying on it with your head toward the floor and your feet in the air. That can help get a breech baby to turn.
Good luck!!
J.

The same thing happened with my second son. He was breech at 36 weeks and my doctor suggested turning the baby. I asked friends and family and then sent a question here and found that turning the baby was not suggested by everyone. I also checked around for ways to get the baby to turn on his own. I lay in my bed and put pillows under my pelvis for about 10 min and started to feel him move sideways but no full turn. And I tried a bunch of other gravity tricks. And then when I was vaccuming around the house I felt him turn. I'm not sure if he liked the loud sound or what but he turned just in time because I was going to schedule a c-section the next day. Maybe you can check the history for past asked questions I got a lot of great answers! Good luck and take it easy.

I had a version at 37 weeks, and I will do it again if my next child is breech. The procedure was uncomfortable, and the next day I was sore, but my son was born vaginally at 40+ weeks. (I even went back to work for the afternoon following the procedure.)

I don't know how your insurance is, but mine covered everything--otherwise it could be pricey. As I said before, I would do it again.

Good luck!

I had a version with my daughter at about 37 weeks. She turned fairly easily...it was a little uncomfortable, but not painful. She did not return to her breech position, but she also did not drop, either. So, I ended up having a c-section b/c of "failure to progress" during labor. The c-section was not the end of the world, but the recovery time and pain was not great. I would avoid a c-section if you can...especially with another little one to run around after! I am also expecting my second child in December and am planning to avoid a c-section.

Hi R.,

I don't have any experience with turning a breech baby (knock on wood, as I'm 34 weeks pregnant now!), but I have heard that the Webster Technique, done by a qualified chiropractor, can be very successful and MUCH less traumatic, painful & risky than the version your doctor is offering. A good place to find a Webster-trained chiro is http://www.icpa4kids.org/locator/index.php.

Good luck!

There's a remedy for breach that has been around for a long, long time and is much easier than Yoga positions - get down on your hands and knees and scrub all your floors. Really, it's in books and some mid-wifes recommend it. It isn't painful, only maybe slightly tiring :)

The hand's and knees position allows the baby some space to "back up". It was put in this position at one point in my labor when my daughter's heart rate dropped. Her heart rate quickly went back to normal while I was in this position and the delivery proceeded with no more issues.

Ok, this is going to sound strange, but.... I had a friend that was an OB nurse, I was breech and she told me what to do. At night as you are getting ready to crawl in bed get on your hands and knees and do arches like a cat would arch it's back when mad. Do them about 10 times then get in bed and lay down. Everyone that she has ever told that to has had the baby turn on it's own. It worked for me. That was with my 2nd baby. My first one was breech also and they tried to turn it, but it didn't work because by the time they made the appointment the babies butt had dropped and they couldn't pop her back out and turn her. I had a c-section. I was VERY nervous, but it really wasn't as big of a deal as I thought. I have in fact had 2 c-sections.

Good Luck!

I first baby was breech, and because of placenta placement my dr couldn't attmept to turn her...safley. So we had a c-section at 38 weeks. All went fine...then i had a repeat c-section with number 2.

I had a successful version at about 38 weeks with my 4th child. I remember it being uncomfortable, but not overly painful. I think my chances of it being successful were higher due to having had three children prior to her. I am now expecting my 6th child, am 33 weeks along, and she is breech as well. We will try another version at 37 weeks if the baby i still breech, and I'm hoping it works. I have never had a c-section, and just would like to keep with my regular routine and not start something new at this stage like dealing with a different recovery process. I'm sure it will all work out no matter what; mainly you have to accept that there are some things that are out of your control. But I think it helps to think positive thoughts! Good luck!

R.-
I do not know anything about "versions" but I do know about c-sections. I have had two emergency sections due to pre-eclampsia (very high blood pressure) and both my children were 3 and 4 weeks early, respectively. If my 2nd had not been emergent I had scheduled a c-section due to the ease of it. I found my c-sections to be easy and I recovered quickly (my 2nd C was just June 3, 2008). However, I do know women who did not recover as quickly but in their cases part of the reason seemed to be the shape they were in before the c-section. I work out pretty regularly under normal circumstances so my body seems to have rebounded easier. I replied to your message maunly to tell you not to be worried about a c-section. It is surgery but if you trust your doctor then there should be no problem that can't be handled.

My 2nd baby was breech around the same time as you. I did all the exercises the dr. suggested to get her to turn on her own and she didn't. I did have the version. It was strange, felt uncomfortable (I can't say painful - a C-section would be much more painful) but it did work on the 2nd or 3rd attempt. As odd as it was it was completely worth the effort and I delivered vaginally a couple weeks later. She stayed head down and all went very well. Completely worth the effort and a little discomfort to avoid the C-section. I would say it is worth a try.

C-sections are a piece of cake. They're very common practice so they've got the procedure down with virtually no risks. I've had one already and plan on doing another with this pregnancy and all future pregnancies. NO PAIN, yet you are awake the entire time. Shortly after you deliver, you will be able to move again like normal and will regain all the feeling in your limbs back within about 1/2 hour. There is a little more pain in the abdomen afterwards I've been told, compaired to the vaginal pain from a vaginal birth, so apparently, the healing afterwards is longer, but the baby comes out unblemished with perfect skin, no pressure points and no pointy head.

Hopefully, you will be able to get the baby moved, because your worry will ease, and...c-sections are a major surgery that is best to avoid.

Dear R.,
I went through a similar situation when I was pregnant with my son. I was 31 years old, he was breech at 36 weeks, I was nervous (also threatened with a c-section) and strongly advised to have a version done. I had no idea that there might be any other option! I went through the version which was very uncomfortable to say the least. The drug I was given to relax my uterus so the doctor could shift the baby made my heart race as if I had been injected with a mega-dose of caffeine. It made me hyperventilate and I seriously thought I would have a heart attack. My husband was there with me, and he recalls that it was a very horrible and scary experience. In the end, the baby turned on his own before the doctors even touched me! Some days after the procedure, the baby turned breech again (he was so active!) I knew I would NEVER go through the version procedure EVER again and looked for other options. Some things you can try at home on your own are: lying with your lower body raised e.g. on a couch and your head on the floor, or lie on a slanted board, just so that your body is at an angle with your head lower than your body. Or simply spend time on your hands and knees. Also, if you like to swim, you can invert yourself in the water. Do any of these a couple of times a day for 10-15 minutes. It worked for me! My son finally settled in a head down position. He was born without complications, is now almost eleven and as active as he was in my belly!
After my son was born I found out that acupuncture is extremely effective in turning a breech. In fact, needles aren't even used, but an herb called moxa (like a kind of incense) is burned, and the smoke warms a point on the edge of the little toe. Although I didn't try this (I would have, had I known) I know several women who have had success with it. It sounds strange, but it is really effective!
Good luck with your decision. I hope my story is helpful, and that your birth experience, be it natural or by c-section, is joyful!
M. R., mother of almost eleven-year-old precious boy!

I've had a c-section and was given the option this time around what I would like this time and I've chosen to have another c-section. It went so smoothly and absolutely no problems it's really not that bad. YES it's major surgery but it was nothing for me. I was out shopping and and doing normal activities a week or so after.

Website for Webster Chiropractic Technique to share with your local Chiropractor - as suggested by a previous mom - http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/tcj/2001/aug/aug....

I do not know anything about "versions", but I've had two sections. All you need to know is your doc is a pro and can do it in his sleep. Being awake sounds scary when you're going through major surgery, but it is actually very wonderful to be awake when they deliver your beautiful baby.

With my second, they said I could hold my son immediately after he came out. I didn't because I was so groggy and I didn't have the strength, but it was still an option. My OB was perfect. He did everything I wanted to happen. (This was my 2nd child.)

Just be open with your doc about your fears and worries. Develop a birth plan for both vaginal and c-section deliveries. Most docs will try to follow your wishes as long as it does not endanger you or your little one.

To me, the worst part of the whole operation was getting the spinal injection. Trust me, they do make sure you are completely numb before they begin delivering your baby.

I was in and out in exactly 30 minutes from the time I hopped up on the table, to when I was returned to my room after delivery. My husband and I joke that if it had been longer than 30 minutes, would our delivery been free??? You know, like pizza delivery. You have to find the humor in stressful/scary situations. I look back and not real sure I would ever want to deliver vaginally if I were given the chance. Oh - and the pain killers for after the birth are awesome! You have no pain. I am not an adict, just had two c-sections and tried to be a hero the first time but limiting my pain medication a little too much. The first time is more painful than the second, just becuase you don't know what to expect. You'll be surprised at how quickly you will be with your baby than if you deliver vaginally. Very worth the surgery to hold your baby that much quicker!

R.,
I went through your exact same situation. I had two daughters previously with vaginal births then I was pregnant 37 weeks with my third daughter. The dr. suspected she was breech and when we confirmed it with the ultrasound and we were immediately sent home to get our bags ready because we wanted to try the version and if it worked I was to be induced. We knew we had little to no chance of it working due to her position (Footling - both of her feet were in the birth canal, actually kind of rare) and my level of Amniotic fluid was really low. But we wanted to try anyways; I couldn't just go have a c without trying every option. We went to the hospital and our dr. (who was so wonderful) tried for over 1/2 hour. They give you these really weird drugs that relaxes your uterus but make your limbs go crazy and then another one to relax you, so you are totally drugged out but feel kinda twitchy…really strange feeling. Then they put an ultrasound on you and basically start turning the baby inside of you. To be honest I would rather have gone through labor while I was getting it done, it was extremely painful because you have to relax while someone is putting their full weight on your stomach trying to grab your baby and turn her inside. And I had major bruising on my stomach the next day. Every 30 sec. to a min dr. would stop and check on her vital signs. After a ½ hour she moved completely sideways in my stomach, with her feet and head on either side of me but she just wouldn’t move past my pelvic bone, and the dr. didn’t want to try any more because he was worried about stressing her out. We had to give up but looking back, she is 4 ½ months now I wouldn’t change a thing, I would have tried the version even knowing how painful it can be. I then was told to go on bed rest for at least a couple of days, they wanted to make sure everything was okay after they did that procedure and then they were going to schedule the c for a week later but I ended up going into labor two days later. She decided she wanted to come a bit early but I got in and had my c and everything worked out fine, the baby was beautiful and my care was great (I was at St. John’s in Maplewood) But I do have to warn you, if you have to have the c the recovery time is the worst part, its hard to move around like you can after a vaginal and when I had a 4 year old and a 19 month old at home it was so hard to get up and take care of them for about two weeks. After two weeks I really started feeling good, but comparing that to a couple days with my first 2 it was a bit frustrating. I hope this helps a little, and remember as long as the baby comes out healthy that is all that matters!!! I wish you the best of luck and I hope everything works out for you!!

Hi! I am a labor and delivery nurse. A version is a procedure where your doctor will try to turn the baby to a head down position using ultrasound guidance. The procedure does not have a very high success rate. It should never be attempted in a doctors office. You need to have it done on an L&D floor with an OR immediately ready in case you need an emergency c/s. The placenta can tear from the uterine wall with all of the pushing that they need to do. If it is successful, the best thing is to have your labor induced asap. Uterine contractions help to hold the baby in the head down position. As far as if you require a c/s...it is a very scary thing to have surgery for the first time. They usually use spinal or epidural anesthia or both. The anesthia is so good that you mostly only feel pulling and pressure. If you feel anything else just tell your anesthia provider and they'll take care of that after the baby is out :-) Best of luck! I hope that this was helpful to you.

My first turned breech at 39 1/2 weeks. We tried a version two days later and my ob could only get her transverse so I had a c-section a few days later. If you have a experienced ob doing the version and they know when to stop, it isn't too painful. Yes, I had bruises, but I don't regret trying it and I would again if I had to. I had vbacs with my two boys -both natural and I really appreciated being able to do that after my c-section. I did try the at home ways to turn the baby, but they didn't work for me. My c-section was as good as it could have been, so I have no complaints. Good luck with everything.

S.

R.,

I see you live in Milwaukee, maybe there is a yoga center you could contact that might be able to assist you. I go to classes in MN (at Blooma in Edina), and the instructor has mentioned that yoga can be very helpful in turning a breech baby. Here is a brief list of positions... If you have never done yoga, see someone before trying this!

One of the most effective ways to turn breech babies after 36 weeks of pregnancy is to use yoga positions. The most effective position is the supported bridge. A woman should place a large stack of pillows under her hips making the angle of her hips to head at least 45 degrees. The higher she can get her hips, the better. She should stay in this position for a minimum of 10-15 minutes two or three times a day. This position will not be very comfortable and the baby will probably move quite a bit. To make this position even more effective, the woman should place an ice pack on top of the uterus, near the sternum where the baby’s head is. This encourages the baby to move away from the cold into the head down position. Note: Once the baby moves into a head down position, the woman should frequently sit in Bound Angle pose, with her feet together and knees out. This position encourages the baby’s head to engage in the pelvis. Women should avoid this pose while the baby is breech.

Good luck to you!
J.

I had the version done at 37 weeks with my first daughter. She was breech also. The procedure was extremely painful for me - the next day I had 2 large bruises on my belly from where the doctor had her hands during the procedure.

I'm glad I tried the procedure, even though it didn't work. I had a c-section at 40 weeks and that girl was SO breech. When the nurse went to lay her down on the blanket, her legs went straight up to her ears. She looked deformed and it took a couple of days for her legs to "come down." She's 5 now and completely normal (had an ultrasound on her hips at 6 months and 1 year to be sure hip sockets were developing normally).

Good news is, I ended up doing a VBAC with our second daughter and her birth was everything I could have hoped for. So, you do have a chance for a regular birth in the future! :) Good luck to you.

I am a nurse that cares for C/S moms and their babies...I personally never had a C section but the Moms I care for do fine...they are given pain medication afterwards for the incisional pain and the doctors do give restrictions etc. but it is really no big deal..I do have experience with having a version..my third child of 4 turned breech at 39 weeks when I was in labor!! They gave me medicine to stop my labor called Terbutaline to soften the uterus and then did a version back in the c section room while I had an epidural anesethesia, that way if her heart rate dropped or if any problems came up they could just do the c section right then and there...she did turn, it is more successful if your uterus is stretched out from other pregnancies and if the baby is smaller...she was 6#5..they then gave me oxytocin to bring her down into the birth canal...she was born within 2 hrs...I was very sore and bruised feeling for a few days but nothing major..either way it will be fine once you hold your baby:)

My baby girl presented breech at my 38 week appt. and my doctor told me I could do a version or just schedule a c-section. He told me he would do a version, but those can end up in a c-section if the baby's heartrate drops or something. So we talked more and to me it just seemed like a better deal to just schedule a c-section rather than attempt a version and end up in an emergency c-section. My baby girl was born by c-section Feb. 2007. I had my first regular and her c-section. It really isn't that bad, it was different, but still a very enjoyable experience. And MUCH safer of a way to do things it seemed. Drop me back a line if you have anymore questions....To me it seemed like the version can be more painful and dangerous. I was scared about the c-section too, but it was not bad.

Hi R.,
I had a version with my second daughter, and it didn't work. Had a c-section, and was really upset that I had to have it, as I had delivered my first daughter vaginally and had a wonderful experience. However, looking back on it now, I'd say two things:
1) Try the version, and if it's painful, have them stop. From what I've read, if it's going to work, it will be relatively painless. If the doctor is cranking on your belly, the baby is probably breech for a reason & won't move. (With hindsight, I wish I hadn't let my doctor try so hard b/c my daughter had a 10 cm. adrenal hemmorrage which I am pretty sure was a result of the version.)
2) Even though I'm still a little ticked that I had to have a c-section, it too was a wonderful way to give birth. Very calm, you knew right when the baby was coming (which is nice when you already have a kid at home), and my recovery was actually about 10x easier than with the vaginal birth.

Try all the moves that the other ladies have suggested, too.

Good luck and remember that your goal is a healthy baby, regardless of how the baby comes out. Hang in there!

My first was breech and we tried a version with her, but she would not budge. They are VERY uncomfortable and I would not ever want to do it again. I had a C-section with her a couple weeks later because she still didn't turn. The C-section isn't a big deal at all...I was ready to leave the hospital the next day, but was made to stay longer and when I did get home, I baked a cake and did everything except heavy lifting. My advice, make sure you have someone with you when you go in for the version because it helps to pass the time while you're waiting for the muscle relaxers to kick in. Also, don't worry about having a C-section, the doctors/nurses are great and it is a safe way to have a breech baby. I prefer natural births and had them with my next 2, but with a breech baby you get a perfectly round head! :)