Actions and Consequences, Am I Expecting Too Much?

She is 4 she is not going to nap anymore, sorry you can yell all you want. Is it just napping or other things. At 4 she should maybe just "take a rest" or have some quiet time but I am guessing an actual nap is out of the question.

Can she understand - Yes

Does she feel like napping - Most 4 yr olds don't want to

Is napping the only thing she disagrees on? Maybe she just is not sleepy!

I think you need to give up the nap.

She's very likely outgrown nap time, neither of my sons and most kids I know at 4 wasn't napping anymore. Even at preschool for children her age, if they don't sleep (which most don't), they are encouraged to sit quietly, look at books, play with puzzles or quiet toys on their nap mats. I would think quiet singing and such would be fine as well since she's at home.

So long as she is in her room for an hour for rest/quiet time, that's all that should matter.

Also, at her age, yes she can understand expectations and consequences, just make sure they are age appropriate and that you are choosing your battles, and learning HER developmental cues. A great website by an expert on communicating and discipline your children here. I read your update, I think there are some tactics here that can help you, it's a tough job!!

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T060100.asp

I'm sorry but I have to agree with Momma L. I really don't know any kids that still nap at age 4. My son dropped his naps at 3 but he will still relax for an hour everyday. He will go into his room and read books, color or just play in his bed with some hotwheels.

When I talked to his Ped. about him dropping his naps at age 3 he said that it was fine as long as he had about an or or so a day of total down time, AND he wasn't acting cranky and tired.

Maybe it's time to drop the naps and pick your battles.... =-)

By age 2 children start to connect their actions with the natural consequences.

I think the real message here is that she's done with the nap. She understands that you want her to be asleep, but she doesn't need the nap anymore and doesn't understand how to tell you... or why you aren't understanding her!

I would suggest having an hour of "quiet time" each afternoon. Our daycare provider suggested this and it has worked out well. My son is almost 3 and he is phasing-out his nap. Most days he will nap, but not all and you simply can't force them to sleep if they're not tired. Instead she/we have him lay down and watch a video or flip through books (on his own) for a period of time. We then find something (also quiet) to do... usually take the time to read or pay bills.

Most kids have given up naps by age 4 -so that's a problem right there. You can tell her she has to have quiet time and stay in her room for an hour or something (make sure she has toys or books or something to do), but don't expect her to sleep.

Age 4 is certainly old enough to understand consequences and respond, but ask yourself what you're asking her to do. Would you like to be forced to lie down and be quiet for an hour or more every day if you weren't sleepy and had no real reason to do so? Especially if, within reach in your room, you had a number of other things you could be doing? I really hate to think of a kid being punished for singing and playing in their own room. Examine your expectations in a number of ways if there are other situations where nothing is working -not only can she understand consequences, but she's old enough to question things that seem completely ridiculous to her.

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Maybe you need to rephrase things instead of taking a nap say it is rest time. During rest time at our house you can take one book to bed with you and when you are finished reading//looking at it then you rest for a little bit longer. Another thing maybe put a clock in her room and show her that when it says 300 she can get up, but not until then. The clock worked great with my oldest it also helped him learn how to tell time.

Sounds like it's time to cut out her nap - age 4 is about the age mine stopped taking naps. Kids will naturally take a nap when needed. If she isn't tired, you can't force her to be. I know I can't lay in bed and be still if I am not tired.

I do not think your daughter is too young to understand consequences. I believe children start learning that their actions have consequences at a VERY young age...even as earlier as 6 months old! Unfortunately, many parents don't believe this, and wait until it's to late to start teaching their children.

However, I do think that it is expecting a lot of your daughter to lay still and quiet if she is not tired. I don't think it's that she doesn't understand the consequence, I think she just can't help her busy body and imagination!

My advice would be to give her some new guidelines. Stay in your room, no yelling, or making a mess, play quietly, etc. Kids still need quiet time (so do moms), but she might just not be tired at this age.

best advice i got from a friend: "you need to run the dogs"
go to open gym or a jump house or something and let the girl burn some energy. my kids gave up their naps around 2.5. i can't imagine them napping at 4! especially if they haven't burned energy!

Yup, give up the nap. Replace it with Quiet Time when she can look at books or something like that for a half hour or so (depending on how engrossed she gets lol).

I think she is old enough to understand. We just did the Nap Wars with my son (5). I think unfortunately, your daughter is ready to give up the nap. You could repackage it as Quiet Time in her room--that didn't work so great for us, because my boy would still be leaving his bedroom, ostensibly to use the bathroom, but really, what healthy child needs to go to the bathroom 4 times an hour?! Now, from around 1:30-4:00, while his sister, 3, takes a nap, he sits on the sofa and reads a book, or helps around the house. We don't turn on the TV for the kids a whole lot, but I've read of other moms who put on a favorite movie. I don't think you're expecting too much from your daughter, I think she is just over Nap Time. I know, it's a tough transition, but fine once you get used to giving up that "break." If you have any other examples (of how she doesn't seem to connect actions and consquences) I'm sure we would all love to hear them and try to help.

So is this only per nap time? Or with all of her behavior all around?

If only with nap time, yes, maybe she has outgrown that.
Each child is different.

I guess I am in the Minority here... But... my son is 4, STILL naps everyday though. He honestly gets tired, and will not last all day without a nap, and turns into a big fussy TROLL if he does not nap.
But it is a daily routine, in the afternoon. And there is no battle about it.
I actually sit in the room, reading a magazine, as he winds-down. Then he falls asleep. He just likes to see me, as he falls asleep. I don't mind.

My son, even with naps everyday, he still goes to bed at night just fine. And at a normal hour. It does NOT, interfere with his going to bed at night.

Also, maybe your daughter needs more runaround time, in the morning. Kids this age, do need that. They are much more physical at this age, like wild young horses, and they need the physicality, during the day.

Or just have a 'quiet time' for her. In lieu of naps.
For me and quiet time with my kids, it is just that. Quiet time. Quiet things. AND I tell them it is MY 'quiet time' too. We ALL do it, together. I don't care where they are in the house, I don't confine it to only their bedroom. But as long as they are having 'quiet' time. So it is not a battle.

For me, my kids don't battle about it. Because it is a daily everyday 'normal' routine. They know that.

Go according to your child. If it is expecting too much of HER... and per her age, then try something else.

What time are you expecting her to go to nap? At this age, they don't do morning naps. So, the afternoon/after lunch is a better timing, for example. By then maybe, she will be more tired/prone to napping.
And, kids need a 'wind-down' time prior to nap. Not doing anything hyper or active. Just keying it down & making things calm. Creating a 'transition' to it. As part of the routine.
Have a routine, prior to nap.

all the best,
Susan

I know that when my boys were four they did NOT nap anymore
and to put them in their room and tell them to be quiet and lie still would have been pure torture. I am not even sure they would have been physically capable of it. So if I were you I would rethink the nap. Most kids don't take them at 4. If you are doing it so that you can have some time to yourself-then let her play in there by herself. I have heard of people doing that. But yes, you are expecting too much with a nap and total quiet.

Another stage in her young life. She wants to be done with naps but still needs them. Maybe compromise to 30 minutes of quiet time in her room & absolutely no banging, jumping etc & then after quiet time she gets to watch a movie. Let her know that you realize she is getting to be a big girl & you will allow her to have quiet time & movie time. So that should take care of 2 hours of quiet time & maybe she'll fall asleep with a movie just make sure it's nice and cozy & dark and maybe a head rub or cuddling will help her doze off.

And with her running around & getting wild try to find ways to help her release her energy. How about a workout video or if you have Wii they have a kids dance game.

And she absolutely understands actions and consequences but you may not be as consistent as you need to be so get a bit tougher.

Even in daycare, the 4 year olds are told to take a nap or play quietly on their mats. If she is quietly playing in her room, that counts as some rest.

I used to give my daughter a choice. Do you want to nap with me, or play quietly. or nap by yourself.

Sometimes I had her read me the naptime story..

My kids were napless when they were 3. My daughter, when she was in K4, would be the only kid who NEVER slept during "nap time" on the nap mats. They darkened the room, put on quiet instrumental music and everyone layed down and was quiet. She would not fall asleep. She wasn't disruptive or do anything to keep herself awake.. she just had already given up naps and didn't need it. Eventually, her teacher let her move to floor space in the back of the room and read books during "naptime". (She was reading books on her own already by then... so she began to enjoy naptime.. because it became reading time for her). I think your daughter is just done with them. Give her something that she can do quietly, and see if that doesn't work better. She can draw, look at books, or play with Polly's or something that she can do without banging things around or making lots of noise. I bet if you give her that option she will easily stay quiet.

It sounds like she needs more gross motor play so she can be more tired. I know lots of kids this age stop taking naps. Ours is one of those and I am a FIRM believer kids need that nap until 5-6 years old every day.

You are going to have to decide that your routine is going to be different now. You are going to need to stay in the bedroom with her until she is asleep. At child care we sit beside them and rub their backs until they go out or sit beside them and read a book or something quite. That way she doesn't get distracted by seeing toys and wanting to play.

You can continue to do the same thing or make changes. Being in the room until she drops off is what I think you need to do but if you are against that then you have to decide what you are willing to do.

My DD was almost 3 when she stop napping,
I always tried to keep her busy during the day or helping me around the house( that's what she though ) ....why don't you try to take her to bath around 6 and bed time around 7:00 or 7:30pm maybe early .....that way she will have plenty of sleep without the nap time

All three of my kids were napless at age 4.

:)

Your daughter understand you and gets the discipline...she just may not be tired! I had one son that napped until he was 5 and one that gave it up at 2 (argh!). Can you imagine if you were told to stay laying in your bed and do absolutely nothing? She is entertaining herself by singing and playing.
I say, get rid of the nap and have some quiet time. Let her know that she can quietly play in her room or read or sing. But, she will be in there an hour. A lot of mama's do the quiet time, I know I have!
If that is your only example of her "not getting it" then I think she is actually doing pretty good!
L.

I guess the actions consequences thing is a little hard to pin down. Kids understand things that make sense i.e. don't throw food on the floor because it makes a mess. If you do, you get a time out. Don't pinch, it hurts. If you do you get a time out.

I say, pick your battles and punish only when necessary. You're getting angry and honestly? If she doesn't want to nap and she wants to play quietly in her room, what's the harm? Many kids are done with napping altogether at her age, anyways. She's not doing anything wrong she's just not doing exactly what you want.

Reserve punishment for outright BAD behavior. That way, the punishment system makes sense and doesn't feel arbitrary or excessive to her and I guarantee you she will take you more seriously.

no she knows exactly what she is doing she cries to get out of trouble. and make you feel sorry for her its a distraction. my oldest son did this same game. they do outgrow it. but it takes forever.

My only question would be , does she a lot of rules to remember? When we expect our kids to follow a lot of rules and the nitpick everytime they don't listen this could lead to rebellious behavior. Other than that ,consistenecy for the child each day is important and follow through with what you have told the child.

My daughter is 4 1/2 and I have had the same problem with her. Sometimes I wonder when she's going to "get it." When I would explain something to her and ask her if she understood she would almost always say "yes, ma'am" but then she would keep up the same behaviors. I just recently started this - after she says "yes, ma'am" I ask her to repeat what I just told her and a lot of the time she says "I don't know." Since I've started making her repeat the instructions back to me it seems like she's started paying more attention when I'm talking and "getting it" a little better. You could try explaining to her "It's time to lay down and have some quiet time. You do not have to go to sleep, but you do need to lay down for a while and be quiet. You may not get up and play. Do you understand?" After she says that she understands then you can say "Now, what are you supposed to do when I leave your room?"

As others have mentioned, your daughter may be ready to give up naps. My daughter refuses to take naps at preschool but she takes them at home on the weekend. Sometimes she protests and tells me she doesn't want to lay down and I just tell her that she doesn't have to go to sleep but she needs to lay down for a while to have some quiet time and that mommy is going to have some quiet time too. She ends up going to sleep every time. I wouldn't continue naps if she didn't need them but she gets grumpier as the week goes on from not napping at preschool and by the weekend I think she's just ready to catch up on her rest.

you don't really say what the rest of her schedule is like. It may be that her body just no longer requires as much sleep. Do you still need her to sleep that 2 hours in the afternoon yes lol. I would suggest that you get her up earlier in the day and keep her busy in the morning. then if she refuses to sleep put her in front of the tv for an hour long video tell her not to move off the couch that she is a big girl now and she doesn't have to sleep but that she has to rest. Chances are she will pass out lol. But if not at least she is resting. She is not too young to understand but she may be old enough to drop the sleeping part of naptime.

I skimmed through the answers and it seems to me a consensus that the nap is not going to happen so I won't add anything there...

However, you did not describe what constitutes "punishment". From your post, I sense a lot of yelling and maybe this is where the problem is? Your daughter is tired of hearing it and has stopped responding.

In our house, we use a lot of time out. It does two things - (1) removes the child from the situation and from performing the unacceptable behavior and (2) gives the adult a cooling period also. My children hate being removed from the activity or action or location so this has been effective. It also gives me a chance to think about what we need to talk about and how I want to present it prior to the child being "released" from TO.

We also try to pick our battles - jumping off the "big" couch is a no-no (absolute) but crashing or landing/jumping on "their" couches (you know, the ones that fold out into quasi-beds) is acceptable. Safety issues are where we typically focus. Bumping around in their personal space/room (assuming again the we are not flying off the bed) is acceptable, for us.

I wish you luck. Discipline is always the hardest issue to tackle.
~C.

It sounds to me like she is growing out of naps. My son stopped taking naps at almost 4. Really you can't force them to nap! I would tell him he had to have his rest time in his room and he had to stay in there and be quiet. He could nap, look at books or do something quiet like a puzzle. There was a period of x months where he was awful late in the afternoon but he got used to not napping and gradually he got used to it.

A wonderful book that our family enjoys is Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason [Paperback] by Alfie Cohen.

First I will say is in reading some of these responses it doesn't seem many have answered your actual question, they've only responded to "naps at 4." To answer your question, I don't want to just say yes your expecting too much because we all have our "expectations" of our kids. Kids and understanding consequences...doesn't really come for quite some time still. I have 10 yo twins and an 18 yo. and they still do things even though they know there will be consequences. At your child's age, no they can't rationalize...a.) if I do this then b.) this will happen. Most kids at this age still do things "without thinking first".

My kids however are of an age to rationalize things through, but do they? NO they will still do things on impulse and then next thing they know there's a consequence. So, all I can say is stick with your consequences or it will only get worse.

Now I'll address napping as the others have...I will agree with most others by 4 most kids are done napping. However, that doesn't mean they still don't need a little down time or that mom doesn't need for them to have a little down time. (haha!) We did quiet time, they got to lay in our bed or in the basement with a little snack and a movie/show that they watch. It would either be a short Disney movie or 2 half hour shows. They could understand that they had to be down until the movie/shows were done. After about an hour your pushing your luck...Goodluck

Speaking only from my experience, 4 was the age when we slowly started ending the daily nap. To start the transition, we allowed him to play quietly in his room for at least a 1/2 hour. Some days he would fall asleep during this time. Other days, it just gave him the down time he needed to last the rest of the day. Today he is 6, and on the weekends we still keep that time when he plays quietly.

Best of luck!

UPDATE:
So sorry, I didn't read your update about already implementing a quiet time...glad it's working out. But, I also have to share a WONDERFUL book called, "How to behave so your preschooler will too." I can't remember the author's name, but it's a very helpful read. The first chapter is about listening...the whole reason why I was looking for such a book!
Take care...

I think you are expecting too much. This is my experience - my kids still needed naps until they were about 4, but stopped napping at age 3 (my two year old even skips naps sometimes now). Yes, it makes for a harder afternoon, so to combat that I use quiet time. This is what I'd do.

She needs quiet time. She must stay in her room. She must stay on her bed. But, she should have some quiet things to do... books to read, quiet toys. If she really is tired, she'll fall asleep. But if she isn't, she should have an hour of time in her room being quiet. Expecting her not to talk or sing isn't realistic. My daughter (2) always sings and plays in her crib for a while before falling asleep.

Also, when my boys dropped their naps, it took a few weeks for their bodies to adjust. But once we got past that, then afternoons got better and better. We instituted a 7:15 bedtime, and generally they both sleep until 7:30 (they are now almost 6 and 4).

IMO four has been the hardest year for my boys. There is lots of "because that's what I want to do" and very little of "that's what you wanted me to do".

You could try letting her have that quiet time for a week or two, and see if the horrible end of the day gets better. Start an earlier bedtime.

Good luck!
J.

At what age do children begin to understand their actions have consequences? My husband is 42 and I'm still waiting for him to realize this. I'm joking a bit but...cognitively, the part of the brain that realizes this is not developed until adulthood. It's why even smart teenagers and college kids can be so, so stupid.

As to your problem, the book "The Kazdin Method for Parenting Your Defiant Child" was recommended to me and I can't rave enough about it. It's not about extremely defiant kids, it's about all kids. There is a very concrete, step-by-step method to solving problems such as this. I'll give you a brief description, but you really need to read the book because the devil is in the details and it is very easy to do this incorrectly and then you don't get the results you want.

Basically, you set up a reward system. She gets x number of points for a successful rest time. Define, for yourself, what that means and be very, very specific. Like: 10 minutes before rest time, I will tell you that you have 5 minutes to play. Then after 5 minutes, you will stop what you're doing, pick up your toys and go potty. Then we will go into your room and you will lay on your bed with your favorite stuffed animal. Then I will sing two songs, then we'll do kisses and I'll leave the room. You'll stay in your bed and be quiet and still so that you can fall asleep. After X amount of time, I will let you know that you can get out of bed and rest time is over.

When she does this, she gets 2 points. If she does most of it, she gets 1 point. If she's a nightmare, 0 points. Be matter of fact about it and don't turn it into a power struggle. Give her a reason to WANT to go along with this routine.

She can earn extra points throughout the day by practicing going to rest time. The practice is really important and reinforces the behavior you want. When she earns X number of points (like 5), she gets to choose a reward. In our house, the reward of choice is 10-15 minutes of iTouch time for every 10 points earned, and we build enough into the day for the boys to be able to earn at least 10 points in a day. Some kids like stickers, or cheap toys (the junk you'd put in a pinata - yo-yos etc.).

Please check out this book. It gives a great overview of how children's brains work and how to get them to do what you want.

Two things I do is to walk them through understanding the cause and effect. In your example the effect wouldn't be punishment, but all the chaos that happens after a missed nap.

The other thing I would do is REALLY LISTEN to what she says in her rebuttal of whatever she should be doing. Repeat it so she knows you "understand" her. Then once you two know what you want to happen and what she wants to happen, look for a way to meet both needs. For example, she wants to play. Okay. Nap first, then LOTS of FUN playing.

A good book is "Sleepless in America" by Kurcinka. She also has a website. You'll get some new ideas and ways of looking at it from her.

I have been told that age 7 is the "age of reason." Young kids don't reason or think about consequences before they do something, like adults (usually) do.

But 4 seems old enough to remember to be quiet at nap time. Maybe try rewarding her for good behaviour -- like when she is quiet at nap - rather than punishing the bad.

Could be she just wants attention.

Good luck,
LisaD

I can relate...I feel like I waste my breath because my kids just don't listen. I think at age 8 though I kinda gave up. I still tell them certain things but because they won't listen and are too involved in their own little world things have happened. One of my daughters jumped off the couch and one day she hit it just right and broke her arm. How many times had I told her not to do so-someone is going to get hurt, etc. Well she had to learn a hard lesson by going through it all herself. Just last week we were in Wal-mart. The kids were goofing off and I had asked them to stop on several occasions, calm down because someone is going to get hurt whatever. Next thing I know my child is crying in severe pain because she fell and literally ate the concrete....chipped her two front teeth. They only listen when I tend to raise my voice at them and then they start to cry and I'm like well what do you expect? I have been asking and asking and now I'm done and have to go off on you.....I don't think they will ever get it. I try to get my girls to "think" and think about what they are doing and will even ask them what do you think can happen if you continue to do A B and C. They usually get it right so I just don't understand it. I think sometimes as parents you just have to let it be even though you know there might be a consequence to it. Some people only learn that way-others never learn-lol! I hate to see that my children got hurt but the warnings were given and they saw a direct action had a direct consequence. Well at least with the broken arm....the Wal-mart deal unfortunately we didn't see what happened and not quite sure that Walmart wasn't at fault although my suspensions are that it wasn't them-it was just a plain childhood accident that happened in their store but my kids had been warned several times to stop mis-behaving or rather being all hyper. We were ready to walk out and pay for the groceries when it all happened. Such is life-sometimes you just have to sit back.....even though you told them so but think back and remember you never listened to a word your parents told you either-you knew all about it more than them right? I swear I always hated and still do hate it when my parents are right~dang it! I'm hoping that my children are starting to see that when Mommy tells them something its for a reason............

By 4 most kids have outgrown naps, and if you are always having to go in there to get her to lay down, then she is just not tired anymore. Sounds like it's time to drop the nap.

Go to the library and get some audio books... have her listen to the stories while she lays to "rest". The "books" may hold her attention long enough to calm down... even if she can "chill" for awhile sounds like it would be helpful. Another suggestion, esp if there are no other children running around, is to do naps/quiet time in a different place than her room. Have her pick out a special nap blanket or towel and she has to stay on that spot. You can let her choose one book to "read"... play some soothing music. Keep your eye on her and reinforce as needed......
If she gets overtired at 2, then try to do the rest time around 1 if possible. I do think it is unrealistic for her to carry this out if she is not tired to begin with. It's kind of like sending a 4 year old to clean their room... if it is not bothering them, they are not going to be able to focus on it for long... they will just end up playing with everything and make a bigger mess! lol! Good luck!!!

What is your idea of "discipline" for not napping?! If she's not tired, you can't force her to nap. Give her some books and tell her she should be quiet, but to expect a 4-year-old to lay still for a long period when she isn't tired is definitely expecting too much! The fact that you said she's whimpering after your "discipline" makes it sounds like it's harsh considering all she's doing is not sleeping at an age she should be giving up naps. Are you hitting her for not sleeping? That is not an appropriate way to discipline her.

Is her room too distracting/fun? IMO bedrooms should be for sleeping only and provide minimal distractions.

I would suggest:

- Blackout curtains (WalMart) to make her room really dark
- Removal of fun items, toys, stuffed animals, etc.

Good luck!