Fenugreek and Nursing Issues

My co-worker uses it and thinks it is great. I drink the Mother's Milk tea, but it has a really bad taste.

M.:

you have a lot going on....

fenugreek is often used to increase a milk supply but there are other herbs available... milk has to be removed for more milk to be made.... you may need a different pump or different flanges.

you would benefit from working with a board certified lactation consultant...

P., RLC, IBCLC
International Board Certified Lactation Consultant
Breastfeeding and Parenting Solutions

You received a great deal of wonderful advice. My second son was also born three weeks early and slept all the time. However, I did use a washcloth to keep him nursing, and I did wake him up to nurse when he had slept for more than 2 1/2 hours or so.

Just two things that I would like to stress: fenugreek does work very well and is very safe, and has other health benefits aside from just increasing a mother's milk supply. However, you do have to take it for 4-7 days, three times a day - either 2-3 capsules 3x/day, or the tincture 15-25 drops 3x/day.

Lastly, if your lactation consultant or doctor have not already suggested it, I would strongly suggest that you ask to use what is called an SNS device - a supplemental nursing device. You fill up 1-2 ounces and attach it to your shirt above your breast or have someone hold it for you. You nurse the baby at the same time that you give her the SNS, because it has a little tube that goes down to your nipple. It will solve many issues because your baby will be encouraged to nurse rather than starting to prefer a bottle, and she will get the extra milk that she needs. I used one of these and what I would do is pump after the baby finished nursing, and hopefully get some of that hindmilk, and then put the pumped milk in the SNS the next time I nursed.

M.,
I can't speak to Fenugreek, but I can to the sleepy baby issue. First of all she prefers the bottle, because it is easier. Try to get her to nurse when she is still half asleep.
To wake her, try this little trick. Supporting her head and torso well, sit her up and gently walk your fingers up and down her spine. She should slowly awaken after a few times. Then, try to nurse immediately.
Good luck.
M.

Michelle-

I had trouble with both of my children staying awake to nurse, and I also had trouble producing enough milk for them. I tried Fenugreek, but didn't notice much of a difference. I also drank Mother's Milk tea (an herbal tea) and I tried something called Goat's Rue, which at the time (about 1.5 years ago) was one of the newer herbs our lacation clinic was recommending, but didn't notice much of an improvement with that either. Have you tried extra pumping to stimulate increased milk production?

As for the staying awake thing, I ended up having to get my babies naked to nurse, and sometimes even had to rub them with a wet washcloth to keep them awake long enough to finish a nursing bout!

If your baby will take the milk you pumped, then keep working on the breast, but also pump as much as you can and give it to her. That way she continues to get the benefits of your breastmilk and might need less formula.

Good luck!

I haven't had too much experience with fenugreek or preemie babies, but I nursed my son until he was 21 months old and we worked through some issues... consider these suggestions:
1. Eat oatmeal. It's supposed to help with supply. I've heard fenugreek does too, but have never used it. Pump after you nurse her and that will help with your supply too.
2. Try pumping a little bit just to "let down" and THEN put her on your breast. That takes out the hard work and just lets her get some milk right away. She may be more likely to want to nurse if it doesn't take so much effort. Bottles are easy compared to breastfeeding b/c the milk comes right away.
3. Do what you can to keep her awake. It may seem mean, but putting a cool damp washcloth on her back or chest may be what you need to do to get her to nurse.

Good luck and hang in there! You're doing the right thing by having someone else bottle feed her - you want her to associate you with nursing only. Like another poster suggested, I would do what you can to completely ditch the bottle and do an SNS instead. That kills 3 birds with one stone - lets her associate being at your BREAST with food, and stimulates your milk production, and gets her fed.

If you can avoid it, I would avoid doing the weight checks and instead just look at how she seems to be doing. Are her cheeks getting fuller? Is she having wet diapers? Etc. When you get too obsessive about weight I think it can cause you to doubt your ability to take care of her, and that's counterproductive IMHO.

M.-
I used Fenugreek while I was nursing my second daughter. It worked great for me!! I was able to nurse 11 months with help from Fenugreek. The first few months, I did not need it, but after that I took it daily. It never affected my daughter's eatting habits. She nursed regularly all the time. I'm not an expert on it, but it worked well for me. Maybe your baby just is sleepy due to her being earlier? I hope this helps. Oh, by the way... when I was nursing, the lactation consultant also told me to try mother's milk tea to increase milk supply too. Good luck!

T.

I started taking Fenugreek approximately 3 weeks after giving birth to our first child (4 months). Per the advice of my lactation nurse, I was taking 3 capsules 3 times daily. I would recommend you continue taking this; it did increase my milk supply.

It sounds like a nipple confusion issue, not a breastmilk issue, since she will take what you pump from a bottle even when she refuses to nurse. Nursing is hard work, and if given an easier option (the bottle), babies will tend to go for that. The easist things to do to decrease the nipple confusion are to either get an SNS or to stop using a bottle and use a cup, spoon, or syringe instead. If you really want to nurse, I would suggest using the SNS, as she will be getting both the supplement and be stimulating your breasts simultaneously. Until you are able to get one, however, I would suggest using the cup or spoon or syringe to minimize the nipple confusion. Have you tried kangaroo care at all? That might encourage her to nurse as needed, but also to only sleep as needed, as well.

As far as the sleepiness goes, you can try undressing her down to her diaper so that she is a little cool (uncomfy keeps one awake!), take her off the breast when she begins to fall asleep and burp her, put her on your knee (head supported of course) and talk to her for a minute or two, tap her foot when she gets sleepy, or try to nurse in a more upright position.

Best of luck

I had a very similar experience! My first was born 3 weeks early b/c I had preeclampsia and would ALWAYS fall asleep while nursing. I thought I was doing something wrong. Not the case- Some babies are just to cozy and fall asleep easily while nursing. I would strip my baby down to the diaper to feed so that she was cold, tap the bottoms of her feet, use a cold rag on her to wake her up. She was just not a good nurser. Does your baby latch well? Mine did not so I ended up just pumping and feeding it to her that way. I did it until she was six months old. I took fenugreek every once in awhile to keep my milk supply from fading. Once your breasts get used to the breast pump, it will be a piece of cake to pump the same amount all the time. I have a really good pump (medela pump in style) and it has lasted. My daughter is now 3 1/2 yo. I think she truly benefited from me continuing pumping so that she could get breastmilk. I hope it works out! Good luck!

Hi! I can't imagine going through this with other kids around! I know it's tough.

My daughter was 5 weeks early and had an AWFUL time trying to stay awake and eat. We ended up back in the hospital because she was severely dehydrated.

We had a wonderful woman from La Leche come to our home, observe us and watch how we tried to nurse for a couple of hours. She weighed the baby and gave us the most helpful tools and advice. Here is what we ended up with:

For weeks, I fed her through a tube attached to my finger (with a squeeze bottle). Then we switched to a syringe which actually worked better. The whole time I was pumping every two hours and sleeping about 4 out of the 24 hours in a day. But, she was healthy. The woman also gave us a clear, flexible nipple sheild which was our saving grace! For some reason, when that went into her mouth it triggered her sucking reflex, she woke up and nursed like a normal baby!!! It took about five weeks for her to be ready to nurse without the sheild, but it was truly the best thing that happend to us. Oh, and no painful, sore nipples either! I think you can find the sheilds where you buy your pump. Remeber, they are flexible and clear. And I would get the smallest one. Hope that helps!!

I doubt it is the fenugreek. I would nurse her as much as possible, tickle her chin and her toes, use a cold wash cloth all the things that keep newborns awake and nursing. I also used a syringe(no needle) to get some fluids into my newborn for the first few days. I would pump and nurse like crazy to make sure your supply is good and she will get the hang of it.

I had issues producing milk and ended up pumping and supplementing. My milk never came in even after fenuegreek and a prescription, but my daughter wasn't really "good" at nursing until about 5 weeks. Just do what you can and keep up the pumping if she doesn't want to nurse. When her sucking develops better she may latch on like a pro.

HI M.,

You poor thing! I remember those first early days being so tough when you have the older ones who need you too and not being 100% yourself. I doubted everything!

I also suffered with a sleepy baby and struggled with my milk supply. The Fenugreek sweetens the milk which makes babies drink more enthusiastically, and probably helps stimulate the supply. I suppose it is possible that your little one doesn't like the taste of it. If you go off of it for 24 hours the taste will go away and you can see if she changes. If she isn't aggressively going after the milk I'd quit taking it and go with the Blessed Thistle that someone mentioned.

I also had good experience with the SNS, even if it is a pain to deal with. Oh, and we even went the Reglan route that someone else mentioned. It worked for me too, but since I don't like to recommend medicine, I'd try it as a last resort.

You have so much good advice here from people who know what they're talking about. I'm praying that some of their advice kicks in for you right away so you can get back to enjoying your precious little girl.

Best,
G.

I have not used Fenugreek but know many who have and didn't have a problem with it(they used it to increase their milk production). It sounds more like nipple confusion.

Have you tried undressing the baby down to a diaper and using a cold wet cloth to rub around the armpits and belly when she begins to doze off? (sounds cruel, but whatever works to get that breastmilk in)

Also, there is a nursing moms network out of Palos Hospital and 3 lactation nurses there. This kind of issue came up quite often when I went there and many moms were successful in getting their little one's weight back up and having them latch on again after being rejected due to the bottle.

You may want to give them a call ###-###-####.

Good luck,
J.

I'm surprised no one else mentioned this--but your baby was premature, and the sucking reflex is apparently something that develops in the last couple weeks of pregnancy. Given time, and the help that you are getting already, you should be evening out the feeding experience. A good friend of mine experienced this with her second child born a few weeks early, and an occupational therapist worked with her and her baby to learn the sucking response.

good luck.

Hi Michelle

My name is B. and I have a daughter will be four months on thursday. I started taking fenugreek seed about a month ago because my daughter was nursing every two hours during the day and leaving me exhausted. She started nursing every two hours at six weeks and didn't spread her feedings out a little bit until I started taking the supplement. She has had no problems with it and it makes me feel much better.

I did have a problem with keeping her awake enough to nurse when she was fist born. I would just play with her while she was nursing, rubbing her cheeks, back, legs and tickling her feet. I found it helped to change her diaper in between sides to wake her up even more. I would even take a damp cloth and rub it on her cheek.

The nice thing is eventually they outgrow this and stay awake for the most part to nurse. My first daughter did the same thing when she was first born.

A little about me is I stay home and have three daughters 8, 4, and almost 4 months.

I hope this helps.

B.

In my experience, newborns are difficult to keep awake during nursing. I would have to constantly rub my girls with a cold washcloth & remove clothing to keep them from falling asleep while eating. Just keep at it.

M.,

Congratulations on #4! I am still nursing #5, so I understand not wanting to give it up.

I agree that it sounds like nipple confusion. We had to do the whole weight check thing with #3. Nursing hurt so badly that I would supplement. I almost gave up the nursing because he stopped wanting to nurse. Turns out he liked the bottles better because they were easier to suck. I sat up one night for hours using a little medicine cup full of formula. I would drop a little formula into his mouth and latch him on. I got him back on that night, and after that I didn't give him another bottle.

I used Mother's Milk Tea with several of mine to boost production.

Good luck!!!!

are you eating spicy foods? my son had a terrible time nursing. I exclusively pumped from 5-10 months. he seemed to be very sensitive to certain foods that I ate. milk made him gassy and anything with tomato really irritated his reflux. I was supposed to take the fenugreek but it turned out that all we needed was a little more sleep and a little less stress to get my milk supply under control. I used the lactation consultants at Lakeland Hospital in Elkhorn, Wi and they were amazing! hang in there! you are doing a great job with breastfeeding!!!!!

i used fenugreek with good success, the only side effect i noticed was that i had a slight maple syrup smell...don't think it should affect the baby's desire for milk. I also have nursed three, my second was a preemie and just couldn't nurse at first, i pumped for 2 months and when he was strong enough i switched him to the breast...just do what you need to get through this period, breastfeeding is never a lost cause, just keep pumping and offereing the breast when you can. good luck, i know it is HARD work!!!

I don't know about Fenugreek at all. My third had tongue tie so he wouldn't latch on correctly or get any milk so I started pumping and feed him from a bottle. He did great he finished 5 oz at one time most of the time (My nipples where very cracked and would bleed when he nursed, he even threw up blood, my blood. Not to mention I dreaded nursing him because it was extremely painful. He was five days old.) Once my nipples healed I tried to nurse again but the same thing happened and my milk supply started depleting immediately and my nipples started cracking and bleeding again. I finally decided it was best to just bottle feed with formula. I could have kept pumping (i would pump after I feed him a bottle-breast milk-so it was like feeding him), but it was too much. I know it is sad to not be able to nurse but it was very liberating for me so with my fourth I only nursed her for three weeks and went to formula. Oh! after a week of formula my son's tongue tie broke on it's own so he most likely could have latched on better at that point but I decided not to go back. Good Luck

I took fenugreek when my son was older, around 4 months old, when I returned to work and needed to up my pumping output to keep up with him. I did not notice any issues with him not wanting the milk, either nursing or by bottle. I did notice an increase in my pumping output, pretty quickly. How is she doing weight-wise? Is she gaining at all? It sounds like you are doing all the right things, watching her weight and working with a lactation consultant. I saw Peggy at the Art of Breastfeeding when my son was little, she was extremely helpful for us. I also use the Kellymom.com discussion boards for breastfeeding help/support. Best wishes-and congratulations on your new little girl!

Hi M.. First of all congrats on your new baby girl! And don't give up on breast feeding!!! What you are going through is so normal. How much did she weigh? Are u sure she isn't jaundice at all? My little one was born at the beg. Of Feburary and was about 4 1/2 wks early. She was just over 4 lbs when we brought her home. She wasn't jaundice in the hospital but at 1 of the many weight chks they noticed. Once the jaundice was under control she fed better but it wasn't everything. Just stay patient she will catch on-you are absolutely doing the best you can by pumping and using formula as needed. Just keep offering her the breast at each feeding and when she loses interest then give her the bottle. We used a bottle when needed for about the first month and now she's 15 wks and nurses like a pro! I wanted to give up so many times in the beginning but its so worth it! I never did use the fenugreek but I would have tried anything. Good luck!-

I used Fenugreek with my 4th because I had low milk production due to age. It helped and I recommend it whenever I hear someone talking about problems with nursing.

Hi M.,
Sure sounds like you're having a rough time. That's tough. I nursed and took fenugreek and it never seemed to bother my baby. I think your issue is that this little baby (who is not yet a pro at nursing) is finding that it's much easier to take a bottle. That's generally why it's not recommended to introduce a bottle too early. I had the opposite problem where my nurser wouldn't take a bottle. I wonder if switching bottles could help you out as it did for us. Playtex nursers with the drop in liners are very "natural shaped." You'll see when the baby "latches on" to the bottle that it looks the same as latching onto the breast. Otherwise it truly is a very different way of sucking for them between breast and bottle. If you have to continue with bottles, I'd recommend those. At least baby won't get "sloppy" with the latch. Good luck!

K.

My son was 4 1/2 weeks early (just a premie, no other reason) and was very, very sleepy. I had a difficult time keeping him awake to nurse but he would take a bottle like a champ. We were back in the hospital when he was about 3 days old for jaundice and they told me if I wanted to nurse, I'd have to pump so they could measure his intake and output. Several visits to the lactation consultant once we were home, and many days of frustration, I gave up trying to get him to latch on and just continued to pump. I did so for about 6 weeks straight and then one day decided to try again and he latched on, no problem. Part of it was that he was older and able to stay away longer, and he was stronger and able to nurse. (A bottle is much easier for them to drink from - they don't have to work as hard as they do when latched on.)

Pumping was a huge pain in the rear, and I was thankful he eventually latched on -- give it some time and then try when your baby is a little older. I nursed until he was almost 8 months old - despite pumping for the first 6 weeks and then again when I returned to work. I nursed him whenever I was with him (weekends, evenings, mornings) and the bottles of bmilk were for when he was at school.

I never tried the Fenugreek so I can't speak to that, but if she's taking your breastmilk from the bottle, it sounds as if it's not the milk.

Good luck!

I happened to be taking Reglan for bad morning sickness. After he was born, the lactation nurse at the hospital said I could keep taking it because it helped with milk production. I had a colicy bad eater and it really seemed to help. I didn't pump at all and did not have to supplement with formula. You might want to ask your OB about Reglan. Good luck!

As a Mom who nursed all 3 kids, 2 of them being preemies, I hope my advise can help a bit.
I used Fenugreek for my 2nd child (1st preemie) as he just wasn't strong enough to nurse well. He'd fall asleep after only a few minutes of nursing. The ped called him a "lazy" nurser. He wasn't really lazy, he was just too little & didn't have the energy required to nurse properly.
And of course, the hindnilk (that comes at the end of each nursing session) has the most fat in it, which is what he needed the most!
So, I'd let him nurse & fall asleep, (tapping the bottoms of his feet & having skin to skin contact kept him awake longer) and when he just culdn't stay awake any longer, I'd pump for around 15 minutes. I'd wake him after 1 hour, even if he didn't want to wake up & let the bottle literaly drip into his mouth. (I used one of the small bottles that only holds 2 ounces.)
If I got an ounce in him, great! If not, I let him rest another 30 minutes, and then woke him again.
The biggest obstacle was that this method makes it feel as though you are constantly feeding him (which you are) BUT - babies gain weight fast, and within about 2-3 weeks, he was back on track & nursing 100% on his own.
He never seemed to notice a difference when I was taking Fengreek or not, but then, every child is different.
Good luck!

early babies are hard to feed sometimes. they are quite sleepy. As time goes on she will become more alert and I hope your feeding troubles will go away. I commend you for sticking to it. It can be alot of hard work when things arent going smoothly. I have taken fenugreek. Are you having problems with your milk supply also? This is what I took fenugreek for. It did not affect my childs desire to eat. I took it for several weeks when my milk dried up unnexpectedly at 4 months. It worked along with a rigorous pumping and feeding schedule.
I think you are doing the right thing by visiting a lactation consultant. When this happened for me, my lactation consultant was a lifesaver. It took a full 2 weeks to bring my milk back. It was a hard time, but very worth it and I went on to successfully nurse for over a year with her.
If this means a great deal to you, keep at it. There is no need to lose hope this soon.
I had 3 babies early and I would take all their clothes off and rub them while they nursed. This helped me. I had to make them uncomfortable to some degree in order to get them awake enough to eat. I also fed them every hour during the day. I was not that committed at night.....,maybe every 3 hours then. the more you nurse the better for your supply, and more practice for your little one.
Congratulations on your new baby!

It sounds like you are dealing with two seperate issues, supply and sleepy baby.

I haven't heard of fenugreek causing a baby to have an aversion to milk due to fenugreek. As far as increasing milk supply, you can continue with fenugreek in addition to eating lots of oatmeal and try adding Mother's Milk Tea (I believe it's the fennel in it that increases supply). Also, you could try pumping for ten minutes or so following feedings. Ensure your water intake is high, especially now that it's warmer.

If you find that the fenugreek is not effective with the supply then you can try taking Reglan (a GI drug that also increases Prolactin) or Domperidone (another med that increases prolactin, more effective than Reglan but harder to get as you have to have it made at a compounding pharmacy). Both require a prescription.

As for the baby, it may be that she is fussy because when she drinks from a bottle the milk literally poors into her milk and with your breast she has to work for it. Always try putting baby to breast before giving a bottle. That way she can both stimulate your breasts and gets some breastmilk.

Sleepy babies often benefit from being stripped naked and held skin to skin. Tickle her feet, rub her back, and as a last resort try a cool washcloth on her skin. During the day I would try just waking baby at least every three hours to go to breast. At night I would be somewhat less enthusiastic:) but still no more than 5 hours between going to breast.

Also, look at www.laleche.org for your local La Leche League, they are invaluable. Also see the website www.kellymom.com . I would also try an independant lactation consultant. Some of the hospital LCs are very good but often they are not board-certified and tend to be very busy. I would not use a doctor as a source of lactation advice unless they are very well-versed, most docs are not lactation experts. Good luck!

There was no downward change in my son's nursing when I started taking fenugreek. Many babies nurse better because there's more milk available to them. I recommend combining fenurgreek with Blessed Thistle. The combination is thought to work better - which was definitely true for me. There's a product called More Milk Plus that has those two ingredients plus two others. It's very expensive, and I had the best luck just taking Fenugreek and Blessed Thistle in their single ingredient capsules.

ok. this is just my two cents. so take it with a grain of salt. some newborns can be a little lazy with the sucking. if she has alreay been presented with a bottle- she might prefer it- because it is easier to get the milk from the bottle than from the breast. Depending on how important it is for you to nurse- you can be agressive or not. If it is very important you can pull the bottles- and just have her nurse. It might be slow getting started (she might even lose a few ounces)but she will get hungry and eat. I am not a dr or nurse. Just a mom.
ps. also, it is not uncommon at all to have to keep waking up a newborn while they are nursing. so sleepy.
good luck!

I didn't have a lot of problems, but I did find that drinking a LOT of water helped my milk supply.

God Bless and Good Luck.

I experienced both halves with each of my 2 children. With my son, I had a supply issue and had to supplement with formula and add fennugreek as well. By the time he was 6 weeks old, my supply had returned to where I could have breastfed him exclusively, except I had to go to work! I never was successful with pumping v. much at work, so I had to supplement w/formula. He never really had nipple confusion so much and I think it worked in our favor long-term for him to have the bottle that early (2 weeks) because he did not have trouble at the babysitter's after I went back to work.

With my second child, who was born 5 weeks early, I had the "energy" issue. My daughter would not eat much at all and ended up with a tube in her nose (NG tube) to feed her. She was in the NICU for a month. When she came home I kept trying to nurse her here and there (I was pumping and had enough milk this time to supply all of Chicago LOL) and finally on her due date she latched on. She does have a heart defect and whether or not that affected her latching on and nursing I don't know, but it did affect her energy level. We ended up working with the feeding clinic out of Advocate Hope Children's Hospital. They were fabulous! She was also labeled "failure to thrive." I was bound and determined to breastfeed her since she had the heart defect, so I kept pumping round the clock, every 3 hours, even while she was in the NICU.

My suggestion would be to make sure you have a hospital pump, not "just" a Pump In Style or the likes, to get your supply REALLY going. Yes, they are that much more powerful! Also, I am wondering if she could be having trouble maintaining her body temperature? A friend's child had that issue and was very sleepy and hard to feed. It happens in preemie babies.

Good luck and keep at it! My little preemie failure-to-thrive daughter is 5 1/2 and has completely caught up to herself...she eats anything and is smart as a whip! It is so scary when they're tiny but know that there are wonderful success stories out here!

:)

Hi-My experience was very much like Jennifer M's. My daughter was 5 and a half weeks early and she just wouldn't latch on or stay awake. So I pumped and fed her with the bottle. I would just get a few ounces in her then she'd fall asleep. The bottle was so much easier for her to get the nutrition that she needed. It was really hard for me to give her the bottle because I had solely nursed my first child. Once or twice a day I tried to nurse but was not successful but I kept trying off and on. Right on her real due date she latched on to one side!! I was so excited. I remember the doctors and nurses telling me that the suckling instinct wasn't fully developed when she was early and to just give it time. Time was what she needed to develop. So hang in there!!! Don't toss breast feeding out the door. You still have time! God Bless.
C.